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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Doddy
Excidium.
#3241 - 2012-09-27 13:02:24 UTC
Its all the same people posting again and again though, and its degenerated into discussions of pretty much every possible situation. Alot of it very situational though and not really realistic either. I mean why would a dram orbit you at 50k. how many volleys would you get before he got inside tracking where the missiles do more damage again. If a dram lands 50k off you is up to speed and on you before you get him locked and more a couple of shots off unless you are insta fit. And if you ae insta fit and you don't kill him he gonna embarass youpretty bad ...

So yeah a specially fit turret bc is better against frigs at certain ranges, but the same could be said for specially fit drakes at all ranges (especially if the fix precisions). Run the numbers for precision drake with a tp andr igs and its not at all bad at any range.
Celin Karr
The Executives
#3242 - 2012-09-27 13:05:22 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Darshan Nabali wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:

It's still rather tricky to judge your proposal when we don't know what the bonuses to missiles from TCs and TEs, or their missile counterpart, will be.


This will still not help HMLs, for reasons why look no further than the Cerberus. The reasons for why it's not so useful, will be the same reasons why even longer ranger lower dps HMLs on a drake will not be so useful.


The Cerb was obsoleted by t3 BCs in the mobile DPS projection role, and by the Tengu and the Drake as HML platforms. Judging the benefits of future TE/TC by using the HML Cerb as a host platform will not give you useful information.



tbh the cerb was obsoleted by its extremly terrible capacitor
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3243 - 2012-09-27 13:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
EFT is a big reason for all this arguing. People take the DPS of a Hurricane straight out of EFT and yells "IT HAS OVER 9000 (600) DPS OMGOMG!" Yeah, guess what it has 600 dps all the way out to 3km. The Brutix has twice that dps at the same range, yet the Brutix does not get brought up here like the cane does. The Hurricane is loved for it's great projection of damage. It has around 300? dps out to point range? At least not very impressive. The point is that the Brutix does 0 damage at that range, and the Drake still does 100% dps to 3-4 times that range.

As said 100 times before, HML is a long range weapon, not a short ranged one [edit for clarification], which is why it should have it's range and damage nerfed. Compared to other long range systems, it's incredibly OP.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Smite Mueller
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3244 - 2012-09-27 13:33:53 UTC
LOL CCP!!
You call that BALANCING!!!!

You nerf the missiles to crap!

I can only hope that there will be protest actions in Jita!!

Balancing is, when you finetune some stats, here you finetune with mjölnir, Thor's Hammer!!!

Nerf the stats at least by half of what you hav planned and we will see.

Remember that Caldari missile skills have a major disadvantage:

a caldari has to skill rockets AND light missiles while another weapon system can use blaster or railguns, beam or pulse lasers, acs or arty

So caldari pilots have to skill twice as much!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damage output is ALWAYS below the output of other races like minmatar or gallente!

Tengus will be worthless in PVE. What is next on the list?? Nerfing Machariels???

Should have nerfed FW a long time ago, but no, let some special people exploit this mechanic!!

If u really feel the need to nerf missiles, at least redo the skill tree, so that caldari can use both missile types with only one skill instea of two!!
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3245 - 2012-09-27 13:48:44 UTC
Smite Mueller wrote:

Damage output is ALWAYS below the output of other races like minmatar or gallente!

Yeah I know! I just loooove hitting for 1200 dps out to 110 km with my Brutix LolLolLolLolLol

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3246 - 2012-09-27 13:53:01 UTC
Smite Mueller wrote:

So caldari pilots have to skill twice as much!!!!!!!!!!!!

You mean the way you have to skill rocket spec to lvl 4 to get light missiles, and that you have to skill light missile spec 4 to train HAM, which you have to spec to lvl 4 to get HM's? Because that's the way you have to train to get bigger turrets.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3247 - 2012-09-27 14:09:42 UTC
Actually, I'm just gonna tear this apart...

Smite Mueller wrote:
LOL CCP!!
You call that BALANCING!!!!

You nerf the missiles to crap!

- No, they are brought in line with other long range platforms. Who dont you go out and do lvl 4's in a Beam Prophecy?

Smite Mueller wrote:

I can only hope that there will be protest actions in Jita!!

- Yeah those are fun :)

Smite Mueller wrote:

Balancing is, when you finetune some stats, here you finetune with mjölnir, Thor's Hammer!!!

- Or when something is so OP it's just not funny, you have to hit it hard.

Smite Mueller wrote:

Nerf the stats at least by half of what you hav planned and we will see.

- You bring no numbers, you just don't want to lose your wtfOP pwnmobile. This is no argument.

Smite Mueller wrote:

Remember that Caldari missile skills have a major disadvantage:

a caldari has to skill rockets AND light missiles while another weapon system can use blaster or railguns, beam or pulse lasers, acs or arty

- Wrong, see above post.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#3248 - 2012-09-27 14:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Smite Mueller wrote:

So caldari pilots have to skill twice as much!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Wrong, see above post.


Smite Mueller wrote:

Damage output is ALWAYS below the output of other races like minmatar or gallente!

- Wrong, see above post.

Smite Mueller wrote:

Tengus will be worthless in PVE. What is next on the list?? Nerfing Machariels???

- T3 will be rebalanced in time. This is no argument against the rebalance.

Smite Mueller wrote:

Should have nerfed FW a long time ago, but no, let some special people exploit this mechanic!!

- They fixed the entire FW incredibly fast. Update yourself on the facts please.

Smite Mueller wrote:

If u really feel the need to nerf missiles, at least redo the skill tree, so that caldari can use both missile types with only one skill instea of two!!

- Then I assume users of turrets can use short and close range weapons by training one skill, and not having to train lvl 4 spec in the smaller type of guns. You can't have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. Update yourself on facts please.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Retardo Khaan
Slow Motion.
#3249 - 2012-09-27 14:15:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Edit: I responded to some of the questions raised in this post and copied the responses to the end of this post as well, And another post responding to more concerns can be found here.:

Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.


[/list]


That sounds very bad idea. And it will make tengu and drake totally useless. Kinda makes me sad to here these kinda plans. Biggest issue for me is dmg decrease. I will sell my 2 tengus and 5 drake as soon as this confirms. Maybe i just buy machariel its cheaper than my tengu anyways.

Missiles already have their cons. You cant instapop with missiles like you can with projectiles. You cant snipe with missiles like with projectiles. Heck your target might even warp out while your missiles still on their way..

Currently 2 billion tengu with all skills at V and +3 implants gives 600ish dps. Or even 700ish with t2 scourge. Which doesnt help with sansha rats for example. Why does it need nerf? Whats the point of 400dps tengu with all skills V while using implants and for the price of 2 billion? Why not nerf medium lasors aswell then? Legions are dominating too much in incursions with their uber dps.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3250 - 2012-09-27 14:16:18 UTC
Man I thought miners were bad when they were calling for a buff to Exhumers. Then I thought the gankers were bad when they were all up in arms about the buff the mining ships were getting.

If you mess with HML the people come out of the wood work to proclaim the end of an entire race. This is good stuff.

Sorry I just had to say it. :)
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#3251 - 2012-09-27 14:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: OT Smithers
What it comes down to is this:

Caldari pilots would actually like to be able to fly Caldari ships using their race's signature weapon. They would like to have the same choices every other race in the game enjoys.

Caldari missile pilots don't get to fly Caldari destroyers. They don't get to fly Caldari cruisers, navy cruisers, or pirate cruisers. They don't get to fly Caldari HACs. Their recons are almost universally hated, and no one wants them to fly them anyway. They don't get to fly Caldari command ships. They don't get to fly Caldari Battleships in T1 or T2 or Pirate varieties.

If a Caldari PvP pilot using his race's signature weapon wants to fly ANY of these ships types he cannot use Caldari. His own ships are ALL broken. Which is why you see this refrain repeated throughout this thread:

BEFORE you do anything to the Drake, fix our other ships.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3252 - 2012-09-27 14:52:33 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Lallante wrote:
The numbers have been posted and end the debate. The HML is overpowered.


That's disingenuous, paper numbers do not tell the whole story in an environment like EVE.

You may have made up your mind, of course, but the debate is pretty far from over (obviously, going by thread longevity).



This is correct. Normally you need to look at paper numbers and how it performs in practice.

This just makes the case worse for the HML as Drake and tengu HML setups are used as one-size-fits-all strategies to fight everything.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#3253 - 2012-09-27 15:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
OT Smithers wrote:


Caldari missile pilots don't get to fly Caldari destroyers. They don't get to fly Caldari cruisers, navy cruisers, or pirate cruisers.

New Destroyers are incoming this next expansion.
Caracal and BB are two of the top 5 most used t1 cruisers.
Quote:

They don't get to fly Caldari HACs.

Eagle needs better fitting and Cerb needs better Cap and stronger bonuses. They are surely to be rebalanced when HACs get their turn.
Quote:
Their recons are almost universally hated, and no one wants them to fly them anyway.

They are hated because they are too good. Falcon is by far the most flown recon.
Quote:
They don't get to fly Caldari command ships. They don't get to fly Caldari Battleships in T1 or T2 or Pirate varieties.

Vulture is as frequently used as Damnation, its direct counterpart. All fleet command ships need the current t3 level bonus which we know is likely to come in due course when t3s get balanced. Nighthawk CCP have said they will balance in turn.

Rokh is one of the most used t1 BS for PvP. Raven and Navy Raven are both the most used t1 BS and Faction BS for PvE. Raven needs a PvP rework, admittedly, and will get it next expansion.
Quote:

If a Caldari PvP pilot using his race's signature weapon wants to fly ANY of these ships types he cannot use Caldari. His own ships are ALL broken. Which is why you see this refrain repeated throughout this thread

BEFORE you do anything to the Drake, fix our other ships.

Wrong as shown above.


Balancing is proceeding one ship class at a time, starting at the smallest t1 ships and working up. BCs and BSs will be next. All the t1 caldari ships that have been through this balancing process will be decent that we have seen stats of so far (Merlin and Caracal are particularly good).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3254 - 2012-09-27 17:36:48 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Saying a long range fit Drake will lose if it begins within close range of a close range fit BC is hardly staggering. The fact that it even has a chance shows there is a problem.


The numbers have been posted and end the debate. The HML is overpowered.


Thats what she says all the time. Please dont fall for those lies :)

best regards, and keep your minds open!
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3255 - 2012-09-27 17:46:15 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
What it comes down to is this:

Caldari pilots would actually like to be able to fly Caldari ships using their race's signature weapon. They would like to have the same choices every other race in the game enjoys.

Caldari missile pilots don't get to fly Caldari destroyers. They don't get to fly Caldari cruisers, navy cruisers, or pirate cruisers. They don't get to fly Caldari HACs. Their recons are almost universally hated, and no one wants them to fly them anyway. They don't get to fly Caldari command ships. They don't get to fly Caldari Battleships in T1 or T2 or Pirate varieties.

If a Caldari PvP pilot using his race's signature weapon wants to fly ANY of these ships types he cannot use Caldari. His own ships are ALL broken. Which is why you see this refrain repeated throughout this thread:

BEFORE you do anything to the Drake, fix our other ships.


Quoted for truth. And all those no-brainers who still say fly Rokh/Blackbird/Scorpion/Basilisk should maybe read the words "race´s signature weapon" again and try to understand. We dont want to be the "just jamming you and do some shield transfer to my friends"-only guys. We want to use missiles in PvP with success, and gladly with another ship than the Drake, Raven for example. Even NH would be ok, but its not. It just sucks as it is now for PvP, and this even when its using HML!
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3256 - 2012-09-27 18:25:55 UTC
tgl3 wrote:
Noo, my Sleeper "kite outside of their 80km neut range" Tengu!
But I seriously look forward to the change. Just have to adjust!


tengu wont be much above 80k with this 90 max maybe witch aint the prob with them the heavy missle dmg lowering and the increased explosive radius will pritty much bugger over eveything useing heavy missles.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3257 - 2012-09-27 18:28:08 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
What it comes down to is this:

Caldari pilots would actually like to be able to fly Caldari ships using their race's signature weapon. They would like to have the same choices every other race in the game enjoys.

Caldari missile pilots don't get to fly Caldari destroyers. They don't get to fly Caldari cruisers, navy cruisers, or pirate cruisers. They don't get to fly Caldari HACs. Their recons are almost universally hated, and no one wants them to fly them anyway. They don't get to fly Caldari command ships. They don't get to fly Caldari Battleships in T1 or T2 or Pirate varieties.

If a Caldari PvP pilot using his race's signature weapon wants to fly ANY of these ships types he cannot use Caldari. His own ships are ALL broken. Which is why you see this refrain repeated throughout this thread:

BEFORE you do anything to the Drake, fix our other ships.


Quoted for truth. And all those no-brainers who still say fly Rokh/Blackbird/Scorpion/Basilisk should maybe read the words "race´s signature weapon" again and try to understand. We dont want to be the "just jamming you and do some shield transfer to my friends"-only guys. We want to use missiles in PvP with success, and gladly with another ship than the Drake, Raven for example. Even NH would be ok, but its not. It just sucks as it is now for PvP, and this even when its using HML!


Missiles aren't the only weapon system in game. It's not even the only weapon system for pure Caldari pilots.

Around 50% of Caldari ships use hybrid turrets.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3258 - 2012-09-27 18:35:57 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Missiles aren't the only weapon system in game. It's not even the only weapon system for pure Caldari pilots.

Around 50% of Caldari ships use hybrid turrets.


And of all those ships only good combat ones are Merlin, Harpy, Rokh and Naga, latter 2 unsuble in PvE and work only in specific formats in 0.0 blobs.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3259 - 2012-09-27 18:49:09 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Missiles aren't the only weapon system in game. It's not even the only weapon system for pure Caldari pilots.

Around 50% of Caldari ships use hybrid turrets.


And of all those ships only good combat ones are Merlin, Harpy, Rokh and Naga, latter 2 unsuble in PvE and work only in specific formats in 0.0 blobs.


My PVE Naga would like to have a word about being unusable. Just because you cant use it doesn't mean it can not be used. I dont use it but I would be the Rohk would be a pretty good lvl 4 boat with the hybrid buff esp when it is able to project null out to ~60k. Here let me EFT a quick fit that would work in missions. Now no it is not cap stable but I never run cap stable in shield fits as I can pulse the booster.

[Rokh, lvl 4 mission]

Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Thermic Dissipation Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#3260 - 2012-09-27 19:07:13 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Missiles aren't the only weapon system in game. It's not even the only weapon system for pure Caldari pilots.

Around 50% of Caldari ships use hybrid turrets.


And of all those ships only good combat ones are Merlin, Harpy, Rokh and Naga, latter 2 unsuble in PvE and work only in specific formats in 0.0 blobs.


My PVE Naga would like to have a word about being unusable. Just because you cant use it doesn't mean it can not be used. I dont use it but I would be the Rohk would be a pretty good lvl 4 boat with the hybrid buff esp when it is able to project null out to ~60k. Here let me EFT a quick fit that would work in missions. Now no it is not cap stable but I never run cap stable in shield fits as I can pulse the booster.

[Rokh, lvl 4 mission]

Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Thermic Dissipation Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


A mission fit with 25km optimal with longest range ammo and no prop mod? I see what you did there ..