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CSM supports Nerfageddon

First post
Author
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#41 - 2012-09-27 06:15:29 UTC
Steven Seaga1 wrote:
So where are they? They might as well be that other most useless organzaton in RL, absolute total silence on the forums with any of thie feedback with upcoming nerfs. Theirs nothing in the sumit meeting minutes that references the winter nerfs and CCP did not come up with these changes overnight which leads to one result , they only serve one master and its not the avg player. So my question why arn't these nerfs in the meeting minutes???


CSM Meeting Minutes wrote:
The conversation about BCs would not be complete without talking about the Drake.
CCP Ytterbium’s view of the Drake is that it should not be a viable fleet doctrine.
UAxDEATH added that every race should have a good BC, and Seleene chimed in damning the
Drakes absurd buffer.
CCP Ytterbium suggested that the balancing problem may not only lay with the ship, but with Heavy
Missiles. While CCP Ytterbium hasn’t amassed all the data he would like to make a decision, his gut
instinct is that the problem with HMLs, and in turn Drakes, is that HMLs have too much range.
Two step added that they are a sniper weapon but do a fair amount of DPS.
Elise gave a possible solution to increase the CPU usage of HMLs which would weaken either the
tank or the damage of customary Drake fits.


HML and Cane rebalancing have been in the air for years.

Also, check out what the CSM are doing:

http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.fi/2012/09/csm-7-fall-progress-report.html

This part is especially cool:
Quote:

Stakeholder pilot project

Previous CSM's have been called "Stakeholders" nominally, but in practice they have had little of the privilege or access of actual CCP corporate stakeholders. At the May summit, CSM7 demanded that CCP start living up to its commitment to the CSM as an entity and finally grant it the relationship with the development process that players have expected for years but never received. Senior Producer CCP Unifex agreed and promised us an integrated role for the entirety of a development cycle, assigning us to single team to undergo a pilot program.

The pilot program is focusing on two objectives - to demonstrate the need for CSM feedback at the earliest stages of the development process, and troubleshooting the communication protocols in order to build a methodology that can be used to utilize the CSM as a stakeholder on a greater number of teams.

The pending success of the pilot program should greatly expand CSM7's ability to directly assist with the shape and direction of the POS revamp, ring mining, and other major features for 2013.

CSM7 is now receiving updates for its assigned team, participating in charter meetings and release planning through access to the recordings and a 48-hour window of opportunity for response with feedback so the team can continue moving at the pace of its sprint cycle. The exact feature we are working on is still currently under NDA, but needless to say we're already learning a lot about what works and doesn't work about this new process.

.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#42 - 2012-09-27 06:16:13 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM is committed to destroying high sec. Simply look at the makeup of the CSM.


Issler Daize and Keldruum are "committed to destroying high sec"?

Because hi-sec is the only place where heavy missiles are used, everyone in hi-sec uses heavy missiles? Right?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2012-09-27 06:18:37 UTC
RAGE QU1T wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
This CSM has been pretty useless so far. The minutes seem to contain dozens of pages of them talking about themselves and talking about how they will talk about themselves more in future and using words like "stakeholder" and "communication" a lot. Perhaps I don't understand exactly what they're doing, but that in itself means their communication with the player-base has failed. I have not seen many posts by them, and their blogs are not incredibly active.

That said, the missile nerfs are 100% necessary. Highsec too needs to be nerfed, at least in its ability to compete with nullsec. Right now there is no reason for most players to leave highsec because the ISK is too good. CCP knows this, and they also know that players who leave highsec tend to stay with the game longer because they join nullsec communities. This should be encouraged for obvious reasons. A flat 25% cut to highsec income, a nerf to highsec station services and a significant bonus to nullsec industry would be sufficient to fix the problem. Perhaps to ease the transition to lower security space, lowsec could be made a little bit safer, or 0.5 could be made less safe (remove concord).

The rebalancing in general is a very good thing, and it will bring more flexibility to everybody. The only negative thing I have to say about it is the decision to fix beginner ships first, rather than starting with the most broken ships (blackops, HACs like the eagle, supercapitals and titans). I know why they did it, but it's still disappointing.



You want HighSec to compete with Null, then give the ability to install IHubs? No, give us high end mining anoms? No, Let us builds Caps and Supers in Highsec? No? Then STFU with that bollocks. on another note the lack of communication from the CSM is disconserting to say the least, how about if a Recall Election were proposed?


And also charge you 25 billion ISK per station. And reduce hi-sec stations to the abilities of 0.0 outposts (look into this, seriously. The difference is amazing). And remove CONCORD. And limit you to 1 station per system. And take away your agents. And make you stuff vulnerable to being locked into stations you can't access. And almost 50% of the systems won't even get anything much from having a hub installed.

Then we have a deal!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dirk Culliford
Zero G Universal Enterprises
#44 - 2012-09-27 06:25:56 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Steven Seaga1 wrote:
So where are they? They might as well be that other most useless organzaton in RL, absolute total silence on the forums with any of thie feedback with upcoming nerfs. Theirs nothing in the sumit meeting minutes that references the winter nerfs and CCP did not come up with these changes overnight which leads to one result , they only serve one master and its not the avg player. So my question why arn't these nerfs in the meeting minutes???



The spacerich CSM's are laughing it up with thier NULL ALLIANCE director masters... what did you expect when you don't vote: you get representatives that support the nerf HI SEC out of existance platforms



You're right, I heard that the missile changes are only going to affect high sec, and infact null sec is getting a 20% hml damage buff. The ai changes are also totally going to nerf solo mission running, and not group deadspace plexes in null. oh wait...
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-09-27 06:27:19 UTC
Turns out you need an egomaniac ex-lawyer nerd to make a fake internet space council more than just a group holiday to Iceland. Who knew? (10,000 people did)
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-09-27 06:28:19 UTC
Some off topic, troll and flame comments have been removed. Please try and post sensibly in future - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#47 - 2012-09-27 06:29:17 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Turns out you need an egomaniac ex-lawyer nerd to make a fake internet space council more than just a group holiday to Iceland. Who knew? (10,000 sheep did)

fixed it for ya.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-09-27 06:31:29 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Turns out you need an egomaniac ex-lawyer nerd to make a fake internet space council more than just a group holiday to Iceland. Who knew? (10,000 sheep did)

fixed it for ya.


You're a bad mechanic because that looks pretty broken
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#49 - 2012-09-27 06:40:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM is committed to destroying high sec. Simply look at the makeup of the CSM.


Issler Daize and Keldruum are "committed to destroying high sec"?

Because hi-sec is the only place where heavy missiles are used, everyone in hi-sec uses heavy missiles? Right?


Right, 2 out of what, 14?
And Kelduum's UNI corp now has a low sec and null sec presence, albeit a small one.

And yes, the proposed AI changes will impact high sec more than anywhere else, though high end plexes are definitely getting very very difficult, unless changes to those plexes are made.
And there are already "suggestions" on the forums by the null sec zealot propaganda teams to make the high end plexes easier, specifically the citadel torps.

I have already suggested that before this AI is implemented, that the slider the Fox Four created to dictate aggro switching will be cloned into separate sliders for high, low, and null.
High sec will experience the most difficult conditions, null the easiest.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2012-09-27 06:44:33 UTC
Well, as long as this "null sec zealot propaganda machine" has better arguments than the tinfoil failplayer propaganda team you represent, EVE will be fine.

.

Prince Kobol
#51 - 2012-09-27 06:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
To the people who are saying that the Winter expansion will nerf HS.. How?

I am very confused?

If anything the AI changes do not go far enough and I hope once they implement this small change they do take it further.

When I say further I mean things like when running missions the AI use dedicated support ships like ECM and Logi as well as random targeting.

I want level 4 mission to be nearly impossible to be run solo let alone afk.

As for missiles changes, yes because nobody outside of HS uses drakes and Tengu's

Of course no large and very well known alliances use Drake and Tengu's fleets Roll
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-09-27 07:34:29 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
To the people who are saying that the Winter expansion will nerf HS.. How?

I am very confused?

If anything the AI changes do not go far enough and I hope once they implement this small change they do take it further.

When I say further I mean things like when running missions the AI use dedicated support ships like ECM and Logi as well as random targeting.

I want level 4 mission to be nearly impossible to be run solo let alone afk.

As for missiles changes, yes because nobody outside of HS uses drakes and Tengu's

Of course no large and very well known alliances use Drake and Tengu's fleets Roll


Do you actually play this game, or are you some kind of weird sadist?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#53 - 2012-09-27 08:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
AI change is a buff to EVE in general. Mission NPCs and Rats are too predictable and that predictability makes most missions and other NPC sites a cakewalk for the people running them. This isn't how it is meant to be played.

All you need to know is exactly which ships trigger respawns, which hardeners to fit, and how much aggro you're going to need to tank with the ship you warp in to pull aggro. AI changes will make that more interesting, and will change the semi-afk nature of current mission running by making players at least pay attention most of the time.

Granted, it doesn't change the fact that they should still be soloable, and actually makes them easier to solo than do as a group, with respect to how the AI changes will impact one method vs another. Having more DPS to throw at the mission will still always make it faster.

Heavy Missile changes affect everybody, and from what I understand, the changes aren't all bad; meaning they aren't arbitrarily nerfing missiles and Heavy missiles in general. They are balancing them, and making some changes to improve gameplay. I'm not sure how this is all going to pan out, or if it's going to be balancing, but I'm sure it'll have an effect on the game dynamics for some people.

Hurricane changes are a little weird. Here's where I start to question the logic.

Drop the powergrid capacity of the Hurricane, while dropping the Powergrid requirements of the Artillery. Okay.. so that works for the Hurricane maybe, but what of the other Minmatar ships? Now everybody flying Minmatar has an easier time fitting Artillery, or plenty of power left over after fitting them.

My issue there is that only one ship is changed, but the guns for all of them receive a cut in power grid requirements. For some, or even many of those ships, this might be much needed because they are already suffering from fitting problems, particularly with artillery. For others, it might leave them with huge leftover amounts of power after fitting a full rack of artillery.

Not sure it's going to work out that way, but I suppose it depends on the exact change. My first thought is the Sleipnir of course, which is already a beast without the need for more buffs thrown its way. Of course, fitting artillery on a Sleipnir may, or may not be your thing.

edit: currently, Arti on the Sleipnir doesn't really make for a great fit, but it can put out >600 dps with ~18km optimal and 47km falloff, while having a tank in excess of 60K EHP. Limited actually, but nice range on that dps. Really, you need a PG implant and/or rig to make it half decent, so it might be alright, but that's just one ship.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
pussnheels
Viziam
#54 - 2012-09-27 08:23:41 UTC
Steven Seaga1 wrote:
So where are they? They might as well be that other most useless organzaton in RL, absolute total silence on the forums with any of thie feedback with upcoming nerfs. Theirs nothing in the sumit meeting minutes that references the winter nerfs and CCP did not come up with these changes overnight which leads to one result , they only serve one master and its not the avg player. So my question why arn't these nerfs in the meeting minutes???

they have no purpose at all , they are and always will be a PR tool for CCP, not that i blame CCP fpr thet , i only Blame the CSM member ,now past and future for being fools and thinking they are important

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Dar Saleem
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-09-27 08:51:22 UTC
CSM is only interested in one thing.

Themselves and the free trip to iceland
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-09-27 08:52:14 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Steven Seaga1 wrote:
So where are they? They might as well be that other most useless organzaton in RL, absolute total silence on the forums with any of thie feedback with upcoming nerfs. Theirs nothing in the sumit meeting minutes that references the winter nerfs and CCP did not come up with these changes overnight which leads to one result , they only serve one master and its not the avg player. So my question why arn't these nerfs in the meeting minutes???


The CSM are bound to a Non-Disclosure Agreement & can't discuss certain things until given the green light.

This.

This is the problem. It's clear that the NDA is the single biggest issue with the credibility of the CSM as a body. You can say what you like about its individual membership. Their hands are tied and their mouths are gagged before they even get on the plane. They can't properly represent us without some degree of informed interaction.

The current CSM minutes' level of detail appeared excessive. Now it's coming into question whether they ever saw the AI changes, in all likelihood because the details were all NDA'd out.

Give us less spew and more content in the CSM minutes. I don't want to know who in the room guffawed at whom. I want to know that we can count on the CSM to give us details about this kind of change so that our reaction can be adequately gauged. Too often it seems like our warnings as intelligent players go unheeded and something breaks because of it.

I don't think the AI change is unfounded at all. But that's not to say the CSM shouldn't have been able to discuss this with the players. That they allegedly cannot is really the travesty and farce of the whole arrangement. Representation without information doesn't seem like a great strategy for transparency and good relations with the players to me...


On the 'travesty' part - not really. The CSM is to provide player representation, not to be the announcement center for CCP. As such, CCP can use them to bounce change ideas off "the communities representatives" to get both feedback as well as overall expectations on the reactions.

No matter what CCP does they will annoy some and please others. It is more for an overall view.

As for what the CSM 'claims' - I really don't care what they say they have or haven't managed to do. I don't recall reading any CCP statements on specific changes that CCP directly attributed as being due to the CSM's input. Without confirmation from CCP on the useful value of the CSM, it's all just rumors and claims to fame by them.

As you say though, I also think the AI change isn't a bad idea - depending on how/what is being changed. If it makes ez-mode dual boxing tougher and makes it mandate more at-the-keyboard gaming; that's not a bad change.

As for the ship and missile changes - again, the ships in question have been discussed for quite some time though I have rarely seen much about missiles being a core part of the problem, that may be my just having missed the threads on it. I've only recently trained up some of those skills - missiles held little interest to me for most of my time in EVE.
Prince Kobol
#57 - 2012-09-27 09:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
To the people who are saying that the Winter expansion will nerf HS.. How?

I am very confused?

If anything the AI changes do not go far enough and I hope once they implement this small change they do take it further.

When I say further I mean things like when running missions the AI use dedicated support ships like ECM and Logi as well as random targeting.

I want level 4 mission to be nearly impossible to be run solo let alone afk.

As for missiles changes, yes because nobody outside of HS uses drakes and Tengu's

Of course no large and very well known alliances use Drake and Tengu's fleets Roll


Do you actually play this game, or are you some kind of weird sadist?


Both actually Big smile

Whilst the AI can never replicate real players it needs to be changed so that gap between PvE fits and PvP fits is reduced.

I would leave level 1 + 2 missions alone but once you hit level 3 missions I feel NPC's should start using damping / ECM / Logi but still be soloable.

However the majority of Level Missions 4 should not be soloable, and none should be doable in a BC for Christ sakes.

Level 4 missions should encourage team play and not be able to be done afk in any circumstances.

I lived in HS / WH and the ability to make isk is ridiculously easy when compared to living in null and this needs to be changed.

However I would not go mad nerfing everything in HS as this does not solve the numerous of problems in null sec.

I would like to see station taxes increased in HS, as well as the number of manufacturing slots halved in addition to what I have talked about missions.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-09-27 12:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Mars Theran wrote:
AI change is a buff to EVE in general. Mission NPCs and Rats are too predictable and that predictability makes most missions and other NPC sites a cakewalk for the people running them. This isn't how it is meant to be played.

All you need to know is exactly which ships trigger respawns, which hardeners to fit, and how much aggro you're going to need to tank with the ship you warp in to pull aggro. AI changes will make that more interesting, and will change the semi-afk nature of current mission running by making players at least pay attention most of the time.


And i totally agree with the need for some change. I'm doing incursions more often now in high sec and after years of pwning stupid null sec anomaly rats, it's a welcomed change of pace.

But where I disagree is with the METHODS and PACE of the AI change. This "1st roll out" ai change isn't going to affect my mission and anomaly running (usually done with a mach for dps and an FoF tengu for close support, because EVEs drone management system is pure balls) won't be affected one bit.

The change DOES potentially break a whole bunch of other things,Like drone boats (one potential fits is let drone boats bot not other ships load drones to drone bay fro cargo like ammo), like the high end DED plexes (and not only because of the ship killer torp, but because those plexes, like all shooter pve content , were created under the OLD AI aggro scheme, the 40 battleships in a Blood Raider 10/10 is enough trouble as it is), like aspects of low and null sec mining and pvp (now the anoms will PROTECT the anoms runners and be more dangerous to the people actually trying to engage in pvp...in null sec....)

The last part can't be over stated, this AI change potentially turns the guristas, angels, blood raiders, sanshas, serpentis and rogue drones into Null-Sec Concord....... ANYTHING that hurts pvp hurts the whole game because pvp losses are a main driver of the economy.

It's not the change that is the problem, it's the how, and very many of us are tryign to tell CCP "yes, please make good change, redo PVE content FIRST, don't roll out incremental changes to a complex system that will only force you to waste time and money fixing them later, like you did with null sec anomalies, Incursions and other things:.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#59 - 2012-09-27 13:07:47 UTC


I don't know of any nerfs.

I know about my buff to lasers by making missiles not as overpowered, but I don't know about any nerfs?

(lol)

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-09-27 13:08:55 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
I salute any use of "gerrymandering" in any forum, in any circumstance. +1 to you, sir.


I see what you gerrymandered there.

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