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A Question To The Theologically Inclined...
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Roga Dracor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-09-26 14:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Do Jovians have an eternal soul?

And, do robots dream of electric sheep?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Fraxi Nilanth
Alexylva Paradox
#2 - 2012-09-26 14:45:30 UTC
Do you have an eternal soul?

Fraxi Nilanth: Albino Spacejanitor Extraordinaire
Roga Dracor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-09-26 14:52:25 UTC
You side skirted my question.. In the context of the subject, your question is irrelevent..

Therefore you offer nothing of value to the insights I seek... Troll..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Hildar Demanin
#4 - 2012-09-26 14:55:54 UTC
I lost track, don't all humans, even the Jove, have eternal souls; right up until you get cloned for the first time?
So if I remember all those Theology lessons at school correctly, yes they do, but you don't (and neither do I).
Fraxi Nilanth
Alexylva Paradox
#5 - 2012-09-26 14:58:46 UTC
I think in order to determine if one race or other has souls, you need to first determine whether or not souls exist.

So come on, lets see your proof of soul.

Fraxi Nilanth: Albino Spacejanitor Extraordinaire
Roga Dracor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-09-26 15:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
It is a philisophical question, much akin to, "Do YOU exist?" You could be an irritating psychosis instilled by that Matari prostitute I neglected to pay last week.. Brought on by a bit of gas.. Or, possibly, remorse.. But seeing as I am a capsuleer, that is unlikely.. Again, in the context of the question, your question dismisses the entire premise, your answer is a simple no.. Noted, thank you..

If the Jovians are infomorphs, or synthetics, your answer would be no.. Thank you , too, Hildar..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2012-09-26 15:43:31 UTC
Yes, they do, insofar as do we.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#8 - 2012-09-26 15:50:43 UTC
Drones are lovely people and dream of much more important things than electric sheep or bugs in the code.
Lazarus Arkas
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-09-26 16:41:17 UTC
Yes, Jovians have an eternal soul.

I cannot speak regarding the dreams of robots and drones, should they exist.
Roga Dracor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-09-26 16:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
My question is relevent to my own personal situation, being a Caldari concieved in the vat, and is an experiment in probability theory, as well. It is entirely dependant on personal belief systems and the honesty of the respondant.. But, it is unrelated to my own personal beliefs and is not for my own introspection. I am more interested in your responses..Smile

I have no parents, per se.. I am an amalgam of genetic material donated from various sources, in effect, I am a clone of a clone. I wondered how that affected the direction of the Amarrian viewpoint, in particular.. As the Jovians share with me an uncertain heritage. Much of our genetics are engineered.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Fraxi Nilanth
Alexylva Paradox
#11 - 2012-09-26 17:30:13 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
My question is relevent to my own personal situation, being a Caldari concieved in the vat, and is an experiment in probability theory, as well. It is entirely dependant on personal belief systems and the honesty of the respondant.. But, it is unrelated to my own personal beliefs and is not for my own introspection. I am more interested in your responses..Smile

I have no parents, per se.. I am an amalgam of genetic material donated from various sources, in effect, I am a clone of a clone. I wondered how that affected the direction of the Amarrian viewpoint, in particular.. As the Jovians share with me an uncertain heritage. Much of our genetics are engineered.



You might have better luck with this sort of thing if you went and spoke to a religiousy person of the religion you belong to directly, instead of asking us here. I mean, half of us don't even religion at all. So when you ask me or anyone else in this thread or the capsuleer community if you have a soul, its like, you're just going out to random people on the street. My question wasn't me trying to lame on you, its honestly like, my thought on it.

Fraxi Nilanth: Albino Spacejanitor Extraordinaire
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-26 17:46:23 UTC
As for the Jove, of course they do.

Hildar Demanin wrote:
I lost track, don't all humans, even the Jove, have eternal souls; right up until you get cloned for the first time?
So if I remember all those Theology lessons at school correctly, yes they do, but you don't (and neither do I).


Interesting, I knew that you believed those who cloned were separated from God, but I didn't realize your kind believed that clones had no soul. It's a concept I have a difficult time comprehending. The physical form is just a vessel, dear. I am no less Halete then I was as a whelp; this is me, I am my soul, not it's container.




"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-09-26 17:50:36 UTC
Followers of the main Imperial Faith are of a variety of opinions regarding cloning and souls. If I recall correctly the Theology Council has not ruled determinately in either direction. One should of course remember the Amarr distinction between 'royal' flesh and the rest of the cluster with regards to cloning.

Then again considering current political realities in the empire I have a sneaking suspicion the Theology Council will punt the issue for a few more hundred years.


Regarding Jovians, they are all dead, may they rot. Irrelevant question.

'Robots' only do what we tell them, my dear.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Safai
Yaqin
#14 - 2012-09-26 17:53:45 UTC
If a live Jovian does have a soul, it is assuredly feeble and rotting away.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-09-26 18:02:00 UTC
I am assured that Jovians are, despite their best efforts to the contrary, human beings. All human beings are born with an eternal soul, even if every action they take during their lives simply serves to distance it from both themselves and God.

I used to be troubled about whether I had forfeited my soul when I was podkilled in a Wormhole, but have since read a theological argument that since the soul is both indestructible and survives outside the physical body (if you think about it, souls are only in a physical body for the shortest part of their existence) there is nothing inherently destructive about the act of cloning.

Regarding your personal situation. The condition of the soul is not determinant on the parentage of the person in question. Even in cases where the DNA of an individual was extrapolated entirely from a single donor they have clearly not been born a souless monster. You undoubtedly have a soul, Dracor-haan - the question you should be asking yourself is whether you have taken the necessary steps to safeguard the future of that soul by placing it in the hands of God?
Roga Dracor
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-09-26 18:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
To assuage your sympathies, I do believe in an immortal soul.

I have no fear for my own in the immediate future. In the long term, I suppose I have acquired a mountain of bad dharma for which I will recieve instruction in one hell or another. The beauty is, I get to differ it for as long as my cloning vats produce a viable host for my consciousness. I enjoy my individuality immensely, so the cycle shall continue.Blink

The question, as stated, was, more of an inquiry directed at gathering data..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#17 - 2012-09-26 18:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Roga Dracor wrote:
Do Jovians have an eternal soul?

Yes.

Quote:
And, do robots dream of electric sheep?

That's not a theological question. However, dreams are a biological process. A robot no more dreams then they eat, sweat, or defecate.

A synthetic creation made to mimic organic life might engage in a similar enough neurological activity that we could classify it as a dream. Given that level of sophistication, you could probably just ask them what they dream of.

Fraxi Nilanth wrote:
So come on, lets see your proof of soul.

A 'proof' only exists in mathematics.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-09-26 18:32:04 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
Do Jovians have an eternal soul?

From a theological standpoint, of course. The fate of that eternal soul is more of concern, non?

Quote:
And, do robots dream of electric sheep?

A robot by what definition? If you mean an industrial fabrication unit on a production line, probably not. Simple assembly work doesn't require "dreaming", or even thought.

If you mean a sentient artificial life form, then perhaps. A more pertinent question would be why would such a thing need sleep? Without the limits of a physical brain that requires such a physiological state, why would you need to dream?
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-09-27 01:07:23 UTC
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:

If you mean a sentient artificial life form, then perhaps. A more pertinent question would be why would such a thing need sleep? Without the limits of a physical brain that requires such a physiological state, why would you need to dream?


I would believe in order to answer the question if a robot can dream, you would have to know if a robot has an imagination.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#20 - 2012-09-27 03:37:34 UTC
As with all abstract constructs, the question of whether Jovians have souls or not is necessarily a legal one. What does Jovian law say on the topic? I don't presume to know.

As for the robots, they don't dream at all, as far as I'm aware. Even if they did, I doubt most of them would even know what a sheep is. I didn't know what a sheep was, myself, until I looked it up a moment ago.
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