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Why is there no first-person or cockpit view?

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Mikhail Raabe
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-09-27 02:54:04 UTC
It seems cool but it would be a pain in the ass to play with. It's not that kinda game.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-09-27 03:45:28 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
He wasnt being exactly unwarented there man. You asked a question then said you dont care about what could very well be the answer.

STORYLINE - You dont have a windscreen or anything else to look at with your eyes.

MECHANICS - You cant see anything from a cockpit (which doesnt exist, see above) and there would be little point in looking out the window if there was one, since the zoomed out view is the only way to see everything going on around you.

Kinda like asking why they use lightsabers instead of samurai swords in SWTOR, but not being interested in storyline related replies..


Inaccurate and misleading excuses is what those boil down to. No there is no "storyline" rational reasoning behind not having pretty much any "camera angle" available.

We see graphics in the game. We see 3rd person perspective. We see a 3rd person perspective with an overlay.

From real life on around, we have views of almost anything deemed of importance to those controlling a craft - be that an ROV at 20k fathoms or remote arms on space craft moving things around "out there".

A first-person view currently isn't worth much at all in the game. Weapons fire in 360` angles and ignore anything in the way so there is no "duck for cover" nor "need to see if I can hit it" nor anything of that nature in EVE.

*IF* EVE ever put in things like stations & planets blocking shots, guns that can't come to bear on a target at all angles, then it might have some relevant value to game-play. While you can target and shoot anything in-range and such...

So the real reason is that the game lacks any terrain or angle aspects that might require a "view point" approach to combat.

As such, the 3rd person view is vastly superior to a first-person view and this is pretty much the only reason that a first-person view would be nothing more than a distraction that might mislead new players into not using a superior method of seeing how they are doing while in combat. Again; It would add no real value at all and could actually harm the ability of newer players to adopt views that help them perform in this game with this games mechanics.
Keno Skir
#63 - 2012-09-27 07:03:53 UTC
Mocam wrote:
I like to talk :D


More reasons, same result..

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#64 - 2012-09-27 08:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
It seems this discussion is still going on and several folks have some weird ideas and reasonings as to why EVE is what it is, let me clear it up for you.

1) in order to have 1st person controls (twitch gameplay) you need to allow for quick piloting inputs
2) if you make the game into a sort of RTS "Homeworld style", there's less need for quick server updates


EVE is one massive world where everything can influence everything else, there's just 1 server cluster and the game allows for massive spaceship fights. To allow a game like EVE to actually have the scale it has you have to use a few tricks, one of them is to lower the server cycle so it has to update less often resulting in it being able to cope (to varying degrees) with the massive amounts of players and all their actions and interactions with eachother. So, CCP has chosen for the EVE server to update once every second, which (if you look at the two statements above) MUST result in not having twitch-type gameplay as it would be silly (picture playing Battlefield where all your inputs are computed and acted out once every second, it simply wouldn't work).

Thus, if you want massive game play, only one "server" and massive player interaction you MUST have an RTS style of gameplay, if you want to have 1st person controls and be more twitch based you MUST lose the vastness of EVE, create different servers and simply not allow for big fights to happen. There's a REASON why most MMO's have 10 bazillion different servers which at max hold some 3000 players each, and because we don't want that crap we agree to not having 1st person style gameplay. That really is all there is to say on that subject.

Could they introduce some kind of 1st person view? Sure, but then you start looking at EVE's background and realise that we're pod pilots so it simply makes no sense. End of story.
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
#65 - 2012-09-27 19:36:17 UTC
Every time I have unsubbed, it was usually due to the fact that I just couldn't get 100% hooked on the 3rd person aspect of the game. I wanted my combat to feel like the kill was actually mine.

I was FPS'ed no doubt about it.

Just in the past couple of years have I been able to fully appreciate what Eve really is and why a first person aspect would not work and why it really isn't needed.

Your goal in Eve is to not out fly or out twitch your target. It's to outwit and out think them. It's to be prepared and have a fit that is better suited for the engagement than theirs.

One day, the technology may exist to allow for a 60,000 + players to exist in a single FPS

I dunno if this has been linked to you, but here is some back story on the "Camera Drones" used when you fly your shp:

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr01-02
Miles Dynant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-10-05 01:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Dynant
I read almost up to page 3rd of the topic, then, i must admit, i got tired....

by the way, this topic catched my attention and immagination, so i want to say mine, before to go:

i agree with most here saying that a cockpit view would be useless, since it would let you see only a small part of the surrounding space: the angle would be set and stricted, and you would see really a little of other ships since they would be too far away.

by the way, i have some considerations to do:


  • First of all, it wouldn't be so pointed out to make ship piloted by a first person view: i remember i played X-Wing Alliance (an old Star Wars game, that maybe the most of the people hanging around here don't even know, and some of them maybe weren't born already, when i was playing it). By the way, in that game, famous for its dogfighting spacecrafts cockpit view involving 1st person experience, you could also pilot biggest ships like Frigates and bigger ones).
  • it's true, cockpit view would lead to ships forced to turn each time they have to point a target. as for this, i agree with others. by the way, all we know that ships like Star Destroyer, USS Enterprise from Star Trek, or, why not, Prometheus Ship from the omonymus movie and Nostromo Ship from Alien,... weren't piloted like a jet-fighter, with the joystick in pilot's hands and that's all. they were seemingly piloted by a whole crew, with a commander, with operators caring all the specific single operations, and some high-powered "point and click devices/computers".
  • The first answer to what i said above, is that you could have the need to bring a crew into the game, at least into the ship bridge. and that's not immediate as gameplay result. BTW the crew could only be placed to make it more realistic, while the operations would always be done with the same controls and interfaces we use now. For Example, i played Star Trek Fleet Academy for SNES/SuperFamicom. It had obviously no 3D, and all the ship piloting was carried out internally from the bridge, with a strategic gameplay (not first person dogfighting, even if ships could fight and pursuit each other). That means that this idea of the internal view IS possible.
  • It also could be appreciated a third person view such as when we are inside stations: i'm new to this game, and of course i don't give definitive judgement (and it's not in my mood), by the way i found annoying that all the "roaming freedom" for my avatar was limited to 10sqm of Commander Living Room. and the hangar bridge: being able to interact and walk inside the ship would give to it a whole new dimension. Such as for other futuristic games where we have a personal flat. that's our HQ, the place we feel "at home" (and is our avatar "home"). In EVE Online, we spend most of our time inside ships (except for those who chat a lot and stay in stations or do many operations inside space stations).
    • Also, i think (even if i'm in trial account) that as much as a player proceeds into game, as the fight routes become longer and longer, with more than 10 Space Jumps: then, instead of letting the computer (OUR computer) do the job and go to bathroom, or finding something to eat or call our girlfriend while we're waiting for our ship to reach destination, it could be more immersive and would incentivate players to fully experience their space trips.
  • the issue above leads to another thought of mine: EVE has one of the most inspiring and beautiful sights i ever seen in a spacegame: planets, nebulas, but most of all the starlight seem REAL. how would it be, sitting on our ship commander ship, or why not, commander personal room, while the light of Trossere, circling the Trossere IV planet, enters our window, colouring the whole room? A PRICELESS SIGHTSEEING.
    • By the way, it would ask our computer (yes the real one) a bigger GPU, CPU and mem stress, since it would have much more work to do: create the 3D internal environment, while managing the external situation, space, ships and so on. and most of all, when looking at the outside from that possible window, making you see what you would see outside, from the camera angle.
    very challenging. [continues]
Miles Dynant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-10-05 01:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Dynant
[continuing]



  • Going on with my thoughts, it's true, ships should turn everytime you would like to point a different target, leading the server to recalcoulate all the ships movements, that, when not awful to see and unrealistic, it would be a problem where you have (as someone said) tons of ships moving in fleet, to be calculated together. (turning, they could crash each other,... and since in EVE ships as i learnt they never crash, it would mean having ships continuously turning and moving to avoid each other).
    • by the way i think also this issue could be solved using several views, as we have in many tactical and also flight sims, where you could move from external to internal to specific clickable views, such as one for each turret (in 3rd person).
    What? this is NOT a sim? ok ok.. i know it! but still let me imagine. EVEngelion (oops) solution it's the most effective, couldn't be the only one.
  • other consideration: we all know that a new EVE Universe-related game is coming out for PC and Consoles, EVE Dust, where First (or near 3rd) person gameplay will be 'experimented'. And we all know, that game will be strictly connected to EVE Online game, and it's players. Well, who knows, but it could be a way to experiment first person experience, that could be used in EVE Online as well, in the ways discussed above.
  • From a Marketing point of view, such choice could let them 'attack' other software houses' market share: as the thread starter demonstrates, many space games lovers come to EVE hoping for a breathless simulation, and where EVE IS NOT that, it could be a killer move to competitors the same: where they give first person experience (the most appealing to common players) but implemented only for simulation, EVE could keep safe it's Key Selling Point that is the space strategy and economy gameplay, but gathering "emotional" players that come to it with the intent to "live" a personal realistic space trip experience, and then get bound to EVE thanks to the mentioned cool and very challenging gameplay


ok as for now i think i said all i had to say...

by the way, i refer to the thread starter, don't get pissed off: 90% people, when you try and criticize their passion, have a fighting reaction since they think that every suggestion, that don't accepts their favourite game 'as is', or suggest some changes to it to the software developers, could be an attack to their passion itself and it's normal not to be accepted by 90% human beings' psicology.

and since they don't want their passion to be put in questioning... and they don't know how to discuss in a civil way about possible hypotetical solutions, they just say "the game (my passion) is as it is now. if you want something else, get the f' out and choose a new game". Just like when someone comes to you and says "i'd like more your girlfriend if she had red hair instead of blonde. why don't you suggest her to change color?" ;)

but... when it comes to express some useful marketing and game experience suggestions... i think the most interested to it are not the other players, including casual players, hardcore players, and players that no more distinguish reality of their life to the gameplay... i think the most interested to such discussions are the game developers themselves.

i worked as marketing product manager for a big company and what i loved to hear were, where not compliants, at least suggestions. because always told me what to do to gain new market share, and make customers happy. and, you know... even Egosoft has to pay its workers: the best the game, the more the players, the more the income.

see ya!
Keno Skir
#68 - 2012-10-05 10:09:30 UTC
In cockpit view, you would have to double-click the wall behind you to turn around. This alone makes it a silly concept.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-10-05 10:25:55 UTC
Miles Dynant wrote:
Duo posted wall of text here


* There is NO cockpit view cause you are in a pod. Deep inside your ship and fly your ship cause it's hooked up to your brain through neural cables. Actually, you are already dead in the first place, which is why that space barbie is actually wrong.

* Walking in station is still a Work in progress. And to be honest, I don't care about it. If you want to play with digital barbies, there are other games, EVE is about spaceships.

* I don't know how you want to have 'dogfight' cockpit style stuff when the smallest frigate in EVE is the size of a Boeing 747, never see those things fly closely around each other either, maybe there is a reason for it.

* Cockpit also doesn't really work cause of 1 main reason. You do know that those models of spaceships are just made to make our eyes happy. The basic underlaying principle is that every ship is a sphere (small spheres for small ships, big spheres for big ships). Each of the spheres (aka ships) have a vector-velocity (for those who don't know about vector velocities, a vector has 3 things: an origin (which is the center of the sphere), a value (which is your speed) and a direction (the way the SPHERE - not your ship model - is moving).

If you align for a warp, as soon as the sphere has the right direction and value (aligned and warp speed threshold) it warps out, no matter the way the ship model is rendered. This is best seen with bigger ships, capitals can warp sideways or even backwards.

They just placed the models cause no game wants to see 100 vs 100 spheres in a PvP fight Twisted

* And why does a pilot need to face what he is shooting, you do know that guns can be mounted on pivot points which lets them turn around (like in EVE AND in real life).

* Also why should EVE be like any other game. EVE is EVE, WoW is WoW, X-series is X-series. Each have their own type of game design, which works best for their type of game. If you want to play an X-series type of game, then X-series would be best, EVE is not like that game.

* As you can also argue about other stuff that 'could be used' or 'isn't right according to phyics' or what ever reason you think of. Point is CCP decided to make EVE like it is, which in the end worked very well (one of the few ever growing MMOs and also one of the older ones that is still active).

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Miles Dynant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-10-05 12:11:40 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

* There is NO cockpit view cause you are in a pod. Deep inside your ship and fly your ship cause it's hooked up to your brain through neural cables. Actually, you are already dead in the first place, which is why that space barbie is actually wrong.


I Know. as the thread starter said, WE'RE NOT talking about what the story of EVEangelion Online (oooops! again) is all about. If this is a "IC Section" (RPG Roleplaying Section), please move the thread to somewhere else where people don't lose their "willing suspension of disbelief" reading this thread. Oh well, i almost forgot: i hope that still people are capable to remind that we're talking about a (really cool) VIDEOGAME. Not reality. Nobody is asking to change history books and history with Hitler winning the World War II or the Egyptians never existed.

THESE, ARE ONLY CUSTOMERS' SUGGESTIONS.

Quote:

* Walking in station is still a Work in progress. And to be honest, I don't care about it. If you want to play with digital barbies, there are other games, EVE is about spaceships.


True. But as you know, (and maybe i think you don't know), every detail is important to give a full experience to gamers.
the first important thing in a game is how much it can give an immersive experience. in some games, that can be less important, in games like this, where interstellar voyages and spaceship experience is all about, ... it could be a KSP.

Otherwise, i have a question for you: while i obviously appreciate your choice to play EVE Online, but... why don't you play some of those simple 2D plain and hexagon tiles strategy games of old '90s ? they have plenty of strategy. no bullshit, no realistic gfx, no barbies. 100% strategy. Like it?

btw, of course it wouldn't be the best thing to have tons of mannequins hanging around like in games such as Second Life (that game is bullshit). But i think that Game Devs would be good and wise enough to calibrate the experience and set the avatars' presence so as to keep the gameplay and game experience the same. And, nonetheless, EVE is a breathing universe, with stations serving thousands of capsuleers. Maybe it's time to let people see how breathing is this universe. not only IRC chatting.

It also could be an incentive to social gaming by letting gamers co-operate in HUGE Ships operations. and create crews. Gamers always love it: it promotes social gaming, cooperation, Clans, and where are clans, there's Customer (gamers) fidelity.
[continues]
Miles Dynant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-10-05 12:20:32 UTC
[continuing]
what? EVA Online (ooooops i did it again) storyline tells that ships are capsule-piloted and that's all? ok. God said it's impossible to change it? (ok the first to say "Devs are god, so yes it is", it's a whining baby)
We're not talking about what it is. but what it could be and how could affect our tender caring loved Egosoft income balance, as much as our gaming experience.

Apart from that, don't be you all so defensive. it could always be placed as an option. obviously not a 100% game engine change.

Quote:

* I don't know how you want to have 'dogfight' cockpit style stuff when the smallest frigate in EVE is the size of a Boeing 747, never see those things fly closely around each other either, maybe there is a reason for it.


in fact, as for me, i don't ask for a cockpit view for dogfighting. Since there are no Jet-Fighter. I would appreciate to being able to walk inside Ship, e.g. from the command bridge to the capt's room, then to the cargo bay.
Capsule solution is effective to prevent computer calculating stress though.

Quote:

* Cockpit also doesn't really work cause of 1 main reason. You do know that those models of spaceships are just made to make our eyes happy. The basic underlaying principle is that every ship is a sphere (small spheres for small ships, big spheres for big ships). Each of the spheres (aka ships) have a vector-velocity (for those who don't know about vector velocities, a vector has 3 things: an origin (which is the center of the sphere), a value (which is your speed) and a direction (the way the SPHERE - not your ship model - is moving).

If you align for a warp, as soon as the sphere has the right direction and value (aligned and warp speed threshold) it warps out, no matter the way the ship model is rendered. This is best seen with bigger ships, capitals can warp sideways or even backwards.


THIS, is a technical issue. finally. Well, about this, i guess they could solve it by still calculating ships as vectorial points (thank you for the explanation, i studied Physics for 5 yrs at scientific high school, not by injecting in EVE ;) ). while de-activating internal view in warping sequences. or making the window show something "pre-made" ( guess, a FMSequence, or maybe the last sight before to warp).

BTW i noticed that when "normal" warp is active, the ship is always in the right direction. the only occasion where i noticed that ship respawns in other directions, is the Star Jumps (stargates), well why not to let them respawn in the way they like? eve backwards? since the navigation is not like jetfighter, they can even respawn upside down

Quote:

* And why does a pilot need to face what he is shooting, you do know that guns can be mounted on pivot points which lets them turn around (like in EVE AND in real life).


again. anybody said we want dogfighting? not me.

Quote:

* Also why should EVE be like any other game. EVE is EVE, WoW is WoW, X-series is X-series. Each have their own type of game design, which works best for their type of game. If you want to play an X-series type of game, then X-series would be best, EVE is not like that game.


pretty easy and simple, convenient answer. And i ask you: why couldn't it be more complete? e.g.: GTA Series were 2D. then ather 3D games went out. GTA went 3D and also modified itself, by integrating some issues (like airplanes piloting, or cars customization) that worked well in other games. and became a blockbuster. then what?

nobody asks to change the backbone of the game. only think that improvals are always a good choice.

Quote:

* As you can also argue about other stuff that 'could be used' or 'isn't right according to phyics' or what ever reason you think of. Point is CCP decided to make EVE like it is, which in the end worked very well (one of the few ever growing MMOs and also one of the older ones that is still active).


even they, wouldn't answer like this: where there's no confrontation, no fan suggestions, no brainstorming, there is no improval. and in the lenght of time passing by, even EVE would become old. that's not "fan vs not fan".. thats pretty simple Marketing.
And i bet that CCP, Egosoft or who the hell they are, are much more interested in reading what we're talking about than you, and maybe than reading about a fan worshipping their work (that i'm the first one to say it's great).
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#72 - 2012-10-05 12:41:57 UTC
One has to remember that EvE was created by a small indy company who had to accept technical limitations on what they could hope to get out and actually work (for most of the time at least).

Using rendered spaceships was technically easier to render, esp in larger numbers.

As new technology was added and CCP managed to get some more money (and more devs) they still had to select what to use their resources on.

Some of the ideas where good, some where less successful.

But the real reason why "Feature X", no matter which one we are talking about, is added or not, comes down to a question that every game designer must ask all the time.

"Is adding this feature going to add enough to actual game play to be worth the resources needed to add it to the game?".

I'd say that while something like a first-person or cockpit view would be nice and look cool, and maybe even hook some more people to play EvE, it's not adding enough to the actual game to be worth putting the required resources on.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
ISD Alliance
#73 - 2012-10-05 13:04:54 UTC
Moved to F&I from Q&A

ISD Athechu

STAR Executive

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mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-10-05 13:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: mine mi
I like the idea of first person view, i not in a pod i am in my house, i like to see the show of hundreds or thousands, if my machine is powerful enough, ships fighting. Without my ship, I obstruct most of the view.
Luc Chastot
#75 - 2012-10-05 14:34:47 UTC
Simple answer: Don't extend your trial, nobody will miss you.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#76 - 2012-10-05 15:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
I'm a big fan of Egosoft's X space-flight games, and it goes without saying that the best way to enjoy exploring space is
with a first-person (or cockpit) view.

But for some reason Eve Online does't allow this. Instead we have to zoom-out of the third-person view of our ship
in an attempt to immerse ourselves in the scenery. But this doesn't help, as the engine noises get quieter and you lose
the visual-connection with your own ship, meaning you can't fly your ship immersively.


I'm not interested in story reasons, like ships don't have cockpits, camera drones and the like, I'm interested in the
aesthetic and technical reasons why an option to offer a first-person view hasn't been implemented.


It's a deal-breaker for me. I won't be extending my trial because of it.

I hope that shows you a little bit about why we dont have a 'Bridge' view.

I really hope you give Eve a little more of a chance, at least untill your trial runs out. And if you decide you still dont like it, good luck with your search for a game that suits you better.

Fly Safe,

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Lavitakus Bromier
WTF Bunnies
#77 - 2012-10-05 15:43:08 UTC
I'd recommend getting lost. Eve Is pretty fking beautiful .
I was lost and wondering eve my first week. Sometimes instill catch my self flying off randomly to see.what I can find
Christy D Floyd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-10-05 15:43:51 UTC
dholl trip wrote:
I'm a big fan of Egosoft's X space-flight games, and it goes without saying that the best way to enjoy exploring space is with a first-person (or cockpit) view.

But for some reason Eve Online does't allow this. Instead we have to zoom-out of the third-person view of our ship in an attempt to immerse ourselves in the scenery. But this doesn't help, as the engine noises get quieter and you lose the visual-connection with your own ship, meaning you can't fly your ship immersively.


I'm not interested in story reasons, like ships don't have cockpits, camera drones and the like, I'm interested in the aesthetic and technical reasons why an option to offer a first-person view hasn't been implemented.


It's a deal-breaker for me. I won't be extending my trial because of it.



Seriously if your quitting over a lack of a cockpit view then this game is not for you. Please biomass yourself and give me what little crap you have.

Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#79 - 2012-10-05 15:50:09 UTC
there is a cockpit view. just unplug your monitor to activate it

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zeran Kariashi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-10-07 16:51:00 UTC
You ARE viewing the game from a camera drone buzzing around your ship....a fast little bugger at that, so small as to be nigh invulnerable. It even follows you around in the captain's quarters.