Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Not empty quoting. I don't agree with all of your points but overall I think we agree on the problem.

Wrong. Having short range weapon DPS at long range has been identified as wrong by many many people for years.


TE/TCs give missles potentially even longer ranger than before.
If you are using close range ammo on a long range turret you(r FC) ****** up. If you are deliberately in close range then you should be using close range guns.

HMLs are not tied to one damage type. IF you actually paid any attention you would notice that all the balancing changes to frigs and cruisers have replaced the kinetic dmg bonus with one applied to all dmg types. This is undoubtably the plan for the larger ships too.



Only 2 ships are out of whack? Sorry nope. There are only 3 HML ships that actually get flowd and two are both ridiculously OP (the third, the caracal, is fine both before and after the changes). The rest are horribly underpowered but that is universally agreed to be a result of the platform, not HMLs. Nerfing HMLs doesnt ruin a single ship.

The drake is not OP because of its resist bonus. Its op because it is cheap and has close range dps at very long range, and huge EHP. With 25% less EHP it is still the crowned king of fleet warfare. TEs will allow it to maintain its existing range for minimal tradeoffs.


They will likely change the drake bonus (as described above) and fix t3s as a whole. They have nuked range and TEs allow the option of getting range back.

You are completely wrong both about what CCP are doing now (homogenuity? Are you joking? Perhaps you think a curse and a ishtar are similar because they are both drone platforms?), and completely wrong about the history of eve.

When the game started in 2003 none of the following even existed /were possible:
(most) Missile skills
Armor Tanking
Speed Tanking
Sig Tanking
Tracking for guns
Missle sig/speed dmg reduction


EVERY ship used long range lasers and shield tanked. Yes, that means Ravens with 6 cruise launchers and 2 tachyons (and low slots filled with reactor controls!) and Apocs with XL Clarity Wards, an EM Ward and an invuln. Without tracking and missile sig/speed nerfs, there was literally no point flying small ships except cost. Every race was basically the same.

Eve is a million times more diverse now than it was then. Its become more diverse with each successive patch and this will be no different. Your idea of "diversity" is a small handfull of seriously overpowered ships that are solopwnmobiles and hundreds that noone uses. The only alternative to this is to make more ships viable, and the only way to do this is to improve niches like drones and missiles on more platforms.


You dont know your eve history, hell, you don't know ****, and you sure as **** don't know balancing.

How often does that happen in practice? Defenders dont work, smartbombs are rare and take a LOT of luck or timing to even hit.

1. It wont be just one damage type post balancing - look at the caldari missle frigs/cruisers - they have had their kinetic bonus replaced.

2. You are including drones on the Myrm but not on the other ships?

3. You are missing the point that the short range turrets will rarely be in their optimal getting 100% damage (and the Myrm will almost never be). The HML is ALWAYS in its optimal and will usually get 100% damage against same sized or larger targets.

4. Even the numbers you posted are comparable (except your cheating myrm example). Harb 426, Can 492 and Drake 411! Good luck using close range ammo on your close range weapons in a BC...




What? a 25% decrease in range means HMLs are still 2 to 4 times the range of the close range weapons, and it can recover MORE than that 25% due to the TE/TC changes.
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It was designed on those principles yes, BUT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO FLY. You can have two similar ships with many shared features that are still completely diverse. That's my whole point. Introducing drones to a previously bereft amarr cruiser wont suddenly make it fly like a vexor.

Show me two ships (post-balance changes) of different races that are so similar theres no point flying one of them! You can't. Your whole claim that they are "making everything the same" is bollocks.



Differentiating races by limiting a race to a single damage type is dumb.

Literally any change made to any ship will make it more like some ship of some other race. Increase speed? HOMOGENISING TO MINMATAR. Decreasing speed? HOMOGENISING to Caldari!

It doesnt matter as long as the ships maintain their own niche. At the moment we have a dozen or two ships that get flown and a hundred + that arent worth ****.

If I included drones, your argument would look even worse since the drake has the smallest bandwidth of all the Teir 2s. Your whole notion was CR damage at long range... and it's trash. There's innumerable factors that even go into making missiles decent, and making trash statements like that don't do the debate justice.


Do you even realize that between a range reduction, a tank reduction, and the need to use mids and/or train skills that apply to only 1 weapon system compared to 3 to get maximum range all affect how well the drake would perform vs other BC platforms and beyond.

People who are so anti missile always toss out bullshit arguments like skill training, yet they will never concede the fact that Once all the core gunnery skills are trained, they apply to 3 types of turret platforms, where as missile skills have no such effect. Sure it takes longer to train that first weapon system for gunnery... but after that, you got a fricking breeze training a new one.

They toss out bullshit arguments like cr damage at long range... yet everyone saying to nerf the ******* range and pull that balance back towards the center. They totally neglect that it's 1 fricking damage type to, and how drastically that can be exploited as a weakness by the other side by tanking choices.



Did you literally skip over 99% of that thread... b/c you look like you missed most of the point there homes.... maybe go back and read it and make your 6 grade ELA teacher proud.

Nope, i think you will find "Diversity" is a British street dance troupe based in London, look it up on Wiki.

They can stand on each others shoulders takes some balancing to do that, they are awesome!!!

When I grow up I want to be in a dance troupe and have hair like side show Bob.

I dont hate missles in the slightest, they are one of my specialities. I fly a Tengu, and am hoping for viable Damnation and Sacrilege and a competative HAM Legion post-balancing. So I actually love medium missle platforms.

I'm not advocating a direct tank reduction for the drake. I'm advocating the planned range and dps nerf to HMLs combined with a switch to a all-dmg bonus in place of the kinetic one on the drake and a slight reduction in its fitting. "skills that only apply to one weapon system" is a bollocks arguement - to fly a Myrm you need to train two full weapon systems! Missile skills only apply to missiles, but to get fairly maxed out missile skills is around 1/3 of the SP of maxed out gunnery so its completely balanced. Not to mention that 3 races have significant missile-using hulls.

It IS close range damage at long range. You showed that yourself with the numbers. At long point range the numbers are all pretty close and that ASSUMES that the guns are able to apply 100% dmg which is a big assumption even for a same-sized platform.

The long range turret DPS is laughable at long range (where it is actually used) in comparison. HMLs are similar to the close range turrets using long range ammo, but 2-4x the range.

The numbers dont lie, HMLs themselves are 20-30% more DPS than any long range turret at range.

Saying "everyone agrees" when actually the majority of people posting in this thread coherently at least disagree is just lol.

Stop saying its one dmg type. It wont be. Look at the changes made so far - every Kinetic only bonus has been changed to all damage types.

I agree but would urge caution if they get to apply once TE/TCs are in - could make them OP against small targets pretty fast.

Oh please. It's hard to take anything else you say seriously when you post grossly inaccurate generalizations like this.

Even worse is if you actually belief it. I went on a roam last night and saw ONE drake the entire time in low sec. And not a single Tengu. Saw TONS of other ships, including Lokis.

I make an argument about killing the *only* viable tech 1 missile PvP ship for Caldari without giving an alternative option *before* you kill it. I think its wrong to nerf the Drake, but apart from that (maybe personal) opinion (which I still tried to solidify with facts, unlike many others here, including you ..) I am certain its completely WRONG to kill really ALL options for tech 1 hull missile PvP (above frig class). So yes, I think in that case there has to be a fix first, before you kill the other option.




Can you refer to them, because those I saw were pretty but no proof for any of your claims.




That statement as it is is just wrong, seriously.

True is: the Drake has a range-window, where it can apply more DPS than any other BC (although those DPS are not instant). In smaller ranges it has *less* DPS, and above it has ZERO DPS. And yes, it can fit a big tank. But it has a smaller drone bay than nearly all other BCs and is a fair bit slower, has a signature like a moon (=can be hit by BS-weapons without issues). And its DPS tend to have less range than one thinks, when it comes to none-stationary targets, and signature and speed in *any* direction (unlike with guns!) will mitigate damage too.

From what you wrote here I seriously doubt you have any clue about Drakes in game ... for sure not in small gangs in lowsec.



So you say the so OP tactics you refer to dont actually happen because they dont work? Fine, thats exactly my point. In those engagements one regularly has when really doing PvP in lowsec (and not only station games or theory stuff) none of those things is a sufficient factor. More often than not those AC-Canes, Blaster Brutix or Pulse Harbingers are right in your face, and you have to struggle to get out of their range. If you can engage someone at range he most often has a chance to run because you are not the fastest ship out there. If they play by your rules you can win, if they dont you wont.



The Cane is so strong because it has many options, but also because of its main weapon system. Truth is - the only really OP system atm are Projectile weapons.