Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think what we're all forgetting is that, unlike long range guns, long range missiles are still competent against close range targets which is a huge advantage.

As far as the HAM vs short range gun argument goes, i would say that the HAMs could use the same explosion velocity, explosion radius and damage reduction factor (almost said DRF lol) as heavys, and then they would be just fine.

And unlike short-range guns, short-range missiles are still incompetent against close-range targets.

I'm all for a HML nerf of some kind; I just think it's important to realize why people fit them--in fleet situations it's damage projection (obviously) but most small gang or solo combat doesn't occur at that range--HMLs are used there because HAMs have such large disadvantages in fitting and damage projection against small/fast targets in exchange for mediocre dps. I've flown HAM Drakes and they're a fun gimmick, but you're chiefly riding on the strength of the Drake itself. HAMs are pretty terrible on anything besides a Drake/Tengu and they're only mediocre on those two. You almost never see a Sacrilege rolling around.

If you go through with this HML nerf without changing HAMs, the net effect will be to have fewer medium missile platforms flying around in general, and those that are left will be chiefly Tengus/Drakes.

HAMs are bad now. Compare amount of Zealots to Sacrilieges. Or amount of Pulse Legions to HAML legions in PvP.
Btw everyone forgets that spme Recons are supposed to use missiles too, and, due to inadequate fitting requirements on HAMLs they can't use them.

I am pretty tired of all thoser Harbinger postings neglecting the drone bay. If you dont use your bigger drone bay to have an advantage over the smaller bay of the Drake in your Harbinger (and Cane), then you are doing it wrong. Thats why I said before - its utter BS to compare just the weapon systems, you have to compare *every* aspect of their environment and how they actually perform. Taking out one single aspect and nerfing it is just not balancing the game how it is actually played.

Many people here say there is *no* medium gunnery platform dealing the same DPS like HML on HMLs max range. Thats maybe true. But then ask yourself those questions (I am keeping it to Drake for now):

1) how much DPS deal HML Drakes at the max range of those long range turret systems? Answer - 0. We have no falloff.Our missiles just run out, and its for sure not at that range maximum which appears in EFT or in discussions. If our enemy is moving fast and on the edge of range we dont hit him at all most often ...

2) how much DPS deal HML Drakes at the optimal range of those long range turret systems? Anwer - normally less than they do. We have steady DPS from 0-max range (which is way below the numbers posted here, go and try it yourself if you dont believe!), and this window is were we can work well. Counter Drakes by not using their window!

3) how often will they hit your Drake with their turrets before your first salvo lands? remember the flight time please! Missiles DONT do instant damage. And since our prefered engagement range due to point 1 and 2 is not too close normally, you have an advantage there.

4) how many wrecking hits will a Drake score? None ... there simply are no wreckings for missiles.

5) how does sig size and target speed work against your applied damage? People tend to forget there alread *is* a kind of tracking mechanic applied to missiles ..

6) If TDs will affect missiles, as will TEs/TCs, how does that work out for ships which had to use them already before, and how will it work out for those which didnt? TEs and TCs boost a number which missiles dont have at all - falloff, and which is the main reason for Winmatar to be so strong ...

7) if I compare a Drake to another ship, shouldnt I better check not only DPS without drones and EHP, but also things like speed, ability to fit tank breakers (=neuts), drone bay size & bandwith to get a better picure of what *actually* happens in PvP? Drakes are normally not able to dictate the range of engagement. Remember that before you cry "OP" .. you can simply run.

8) which damage type can a Drake deal, and how much of those EFT numbers will stay if you actually prepare to fight Drakes? Kinetic resistances buffed and the enemy Drake fleet loses a lot of their DPS.

What I can say from my personal experience (I have done *lots* of small gang PvP in lowsec, and flew most often a Drake, but sometimes also a Cane or Cyclone, and Recons) is this: a Cane is a formidable adversary if flown right. The fact it can use Slave Imps to improve its armortank is a really big plus over a Drake. And its so much more versatile - there is not just *one* legit Cane fitting, you can do many things with it. The Drake on the other hand is a one trick pony - it can do good DPS with either HML or very good DPS with HAM (only kinetic though, because with everything else it gets WAY behind), and still have good EHP. But there are really no other useful fittings. There is no chance to deal damage (7 bonused launchers) and put a medium neut to use like you can do in a Cane without crippling your ship completely. There is no way to put Sebo & web & prop & point without *ruining* your tank. If you want to stay t2, you will have serious CPU issues, and HAMs need a fitting mod.

Still the Drake is a viable ship. But is it overpowered? For sure *NOT* in small gangs and low sec PvP, else everyone would use it. It is strong, yes - but its also the only tech 1 missile based caldari ship above frig size which is able to compete with the other races counterparts. So I dont wonder to see so many of them - dont forget, dedication to missiles means you will not have the chance to just change to FOTM like you can do as a gunnery pilot - they need to train other races ships, like we do. And the racial weapons, but they already have *all* support skills normally, and thats what many Caldari pilots dont have.

So if you feel like there is a need to fix Drakes, go on - but in the same time give us a new tech 1 missile based *workhorse* which is working for us like the Drake does right now - strong enough to take on the other races counterparts, without being OP, but just viable. The Raven for sure is not.

That would be true if drones had any effect on a battle happening at 60 km

When comparing sniper fits, the drones are ignored intentionally . . . now you have a point with comparing HAMs to pulse lasers/blasters/autocannons

And as has already been admitted, HAMs need a buff.


This is true, but as has been stated, the effective range of HMLs is still far better even considering falloff.


Im not sure what you're getting at here. The drake deals more DPS at the range of every long range weapon platform with the exception of rails which nobody uses because in spite of their long range, they do no DPS.


This is a valid point. drakes do have missile flight time to deal with, but this is compensated for by their versatility (assuming they fix percisions) and ability to do consistent damage at all ranges.

True, but remember there are also no glancing blows and no misses either. As a function the differences are null


That is true, but this is much nicer than the turret tracking mechanic as it is consistent not random. neither of these systems is better or worse, so there is no disadvantage to missiles here.


Without knowing how CCP plans to make missiles work with TEs and TCs we cant give anyone an advantage here.
IMHO it should be about +30% range (optimal plus half falloff) for missiles.


Remember HMLs are long range weapons, and as such need to be compared with other long range weapons, and when doing so, remember at long range weapon optimals, neuts and drones are not able to be used.
Now again, I agree HAMs need a buff to be able to stand with other short range weapon systems, but that isnt what youre talking about here.

And please repeat it again - those Drake numbers are just true with kinetic damage. If Drakes were OP, everyone would fit kin resists like mad OR just fly a Drake. In lowsec Drakes are common, but not the only ship. Taking into account they are the only tech 1 missile ship viable for PvP for an entire race they are still pretty rare!

AC/Arti users can switch damage type from EM to Therm to Exp without losing DPS (although they dont deal only one type but always have a mix with others). And turrets have wreckings. Missiles dont. Missiles have issues with sig size and speed of target, turrets have them with tracking. Please stop picking single aspects but try to see the whole picture - and figure: if HMLs would be so OP like ACs are, wouldnt people start using them on unbonused ships like it actually *is* done with ACs? And even more so wouldnt other HML ships not also shine? There are just 2 which are doing well, and I still stand for it: those numbers come from null sec blobs, not from smaller scale stuff, where in fact many things are fine and balanced. Caldari missile PvP ships (above frig ....) except Drake and Tengu are not fine. *Thats* something CCP should change, and we will see more than just Drakes and Tengus for sure.

to your points

1) the Drake is not OP in most parts of PvP. It may be OP in null sec fleets, but it is for sure not OP in standard lowsec fights! Do you state it is OP in current low sec fights compared to a Cane? Seriously?

2) HMLs are viable now to a degree on 2 (!!!) ships, on all others they are not really competitive which may be because they are not overpowered, and just the 2 ships are good enough to make em work ... after a nerf they will not be viable anymore on those 2 ships like they are now (its not Drakes are ROFLstomping lowsec, you know ..), and will absolutely crap on all other HML platforms, if they dont get severly buffed (which they will need to do anyway!).

3) I feel HAMs have big issues atm, but thats not the main reason for me to dislike that HML nerf - HMLs perform good, no question. I had many nice fights with my HML Drake. But in my gangs and in enemy teams were also Canes, Prophecies, Harbis, Cyclones, Myrms, Brutix and other Drakes. It seemed to me that on smaller scale everything worked out well. My concern is: if HML wont work anymore, which long range missile platform will Caldari have? Give us options (viable options!) and you will see more variation. To just kill one system without giving something in return is not balanced.

and as a last point - Drakes cant dictate range normally. If you choose to fight them on *their* preferred range you are doing it wrong. Get in their face (where they have less DPS than you) or GTFO (which they cant keep you from), and if you lose, maybe blame yourself and not the OP enemy ship .... with 100MN AB Tengu this might be all a bit different.

It doesn't take EC-300 drones long at all to cover 60 km. Especially if you've upgraded your drone navigation skill. Drake can't hit you if it can't target you.

Or drop light webbing drones on it. Or, if the TD change goes through, TD light drones on it.

Please stop comparing Drake and Brutix. Tier 1 BCs are just weaker, the fact that Myrmidon have no gun bonuses doesn't automatically put Brutix in same group as Drake/Harbinger/Hurricane.



in many cases every hit on Drake is a glancing blow. In some cases it's effectively a miss (fast-moving frigs).