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Upcoming "balancing" overall repercussions.

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Pipa Porto
#101 - 2012-09-25 02:02:34 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
1. Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve, Guild wars, Diablo, and many others.
2. Hams will not be a comparable option for sleeper sites, incursions, or missions post buff because they still wont have the range.
3. The missile using mission runners ****won't**** go to wormholes as alternative income due to the nerfs to missile.


1. Citation needed with regards to EVE. The prime NPC AI has not changed significantly since launch. Secondly, the AI change is simply adding target swapping.
2. What's one of the things TEs and TCs do so well. Oh, that's right, they add range.
3. Ummm....
Cipher Jones wrote:
Where do "hisec carebears" go when Hisec takes a hit? Wormholes.


And again, the vast majority of WH output comes from C5 and C6 corps with Caps. They won't be affected at all, as the only Subcaps you really want are Lokis and other support.

Mission runners will not be significantly affected by the AI change because drones aren't significant for virtually all.

Mission runners will be able to easily adapt to the HML nerf by slinging HAMs (a HAM Tengu with 2 BCUs puts out more DPS than an HML tengu with 4 and still has a spare midslot for a TC. Getting the 25km base Rage range out to the ~37km you actually need for missioning [evidenced by the Golem's Rage range] shouldn't be hard with space for 2 TEs and a TC). Javelin, ofc, affects both ranges similarly. So you get the same (better, actually) DPS, and plenty of range.

So, with regards to missions and WHs, nothing will significantly change.

With regards to PvP (and good job declaring the standard-for-a-reason Gang/Fleet Drake a shitfit), the Drake and Tengu are getting the nerf they so richly need.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#102 - 2012-09-25 02:06:32 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
1. Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve, Guild wars, Diablo, and many others.
2. Hams will not be a comparable option for sleeper sites, incursions, or missions post buff because they still wont have the range.
3. The missile using mission runners ****won't**** go to wormholes as alternative income due to the nerfs to missile.


1. Citation needed with regards to EVE. The prime NPC AI has not changed significantly since launch. Secondly, the AI change is simply adding target swapping.
2. What's one of the things TEs and TCs do so well. Oh, that's right, they add range.
3. Ummm....
Cipher Jones wrote:
Where do "hisec carebears" go when Hisec takes a hit? Wormholes.


And again, the vast majority of WH output comes from C5 and C6 corps with Caps. They won't be affected at all, as the only Subcaps you really want are Lokis and other support.

Mission runners will not be significantly affected by the AI change because drones aren't significant for virtually all.

Mission runners will be able to easily adapt to the HML nerf by slinging HAMs (a HAM Tengu with 2 BCUs puts out more DPS than an HML tengu with 4 and still has a spare midslot for a TC. Getting the 25km base Rage range out to the ~37km you actually need for missioning [evidenced by the Golem's Rage range] shouldn't be hard with space for 2 TEs and a TC). Javelin, ofc, affects both ranges similarly. So you get the same (better, actually) DPS, and plenty of range.

So, with regards to missions and WHs, nothing will significantly change.

With regards to PvP (and good job declaring the standard-for-a-reason Gang/Fleet Drake a shitfit), the Drake and Tengu are getting the nerf they so richly need.


Well, I'll be sure to necro this thread at the appropriate time with stats from Eve offline.

And I'll eagerly await the Goons telling me I'm reading the chart backwards. That ones a classic and never gets old.

You know, the chart with 60k in the middle.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#103 - 2012-09-25 02:27:54 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Well, I'll be sure to necro this thread at the appropriate time with stats from Eve offline.

And I'll eagerly await the Goons telling me I'm reading the chart backwards. That ones a classic and never gets old.

You know, the chart with 60k in the middle.


How is the Incarna fiasco relevant to your opposition to fixing overpowered ships?

Cipher Jones wrote:
Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve,


Again, citation needed. When has a significant change to AI caused a significant dropoff in EVE's playerbase?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#104 - 2012-09-25 04:48:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Well, I'll be sure to necro this thread at the appropriate time with stats from Eve offline.

And I'll eagerly await the Goons telling me I'm reading the chart backwards. That ones a classic and never gets old.

You know, the chart with 60k in the middle.


How is the Incarna fiasco relevant to your opposition to fixing overpowered ships?

Cipher Jones wrote:
Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve,


Again, citation needed. When has a significant change to AI caused a significant dropoff in EVE's playerbase?


http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Take your pick. The 16+ drops in activity are not all from Incarna.

Chribba fixed the graph for you also.

I like that guy.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#105 - 2012-09-25 06:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve,


Again, citation needed. When has a significant change to AI caused a significant dropoff in EVE's playerbase?


http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Take your pick. The 16+ drops in activity are not all from Incarna.

Chribba fixed the graph for you also.

I like that guy.


So which one do you think was caused by changes to EVE's AI, and what evidence do you have to suggest that?


Cipher Jones wrote:
You know, the chart with 60k in the middle.


Oh, and where's the 60k in the middle of any of those charts? Twisted

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2012-09-25 06:36:45 UTC
There has never been a dropoff when CCP fiddled with the AI and there will also not be a dropoff with this change to the AI. If people would read the dev blog they would know this and the changes to missiles means the tengu will most likely be replaced with one of the three raven hulls.

Its hardly earth shattering news.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2012-09-25 06:46:37 UTC
um am I the only one that remembers that every ship in the game is getting this massive OMG over the top buff in the winter expansion?

Have you seen the new stabber? 2 more lows and they built the speed into the ship to give it more damage bonuses.

Like are you kidding me? bring it on NPCs, I'm don't give a kitten, I've got three gryos and the greatest kite arty stabber. It's basically turned the normal stabber into a fleet stabber.

Why would you whine about a little buff to missiles when most missile cruisers are gaining one or two missile slots? Not to mention the new frigates, omg the fantastic new frigates can actually tackle a battleship and not die to drones, it's sublime.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-09-25 18:22:11 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
LOL@PVE

Nobody cares what the balance of ships is with regards to PvE. There's nothing remotely important about the relative balance between ships used for PvE. When we say the Drake is overpowered, we're talking about PvP.
Oh, and there's that spare mid with the web. Feel free to patch the thermal hole. If you need CPU, drop the Nano for a Co-Proc.

So, show me another BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle.


So you are saying that that drake cant be beat by another tier 2 BC in PvP? ROFL if you are.


I didn't say that.

Are you going to show me another BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?

That said, any other LR t2 BC, yes. Remember, HMs are Long Range weapons in the class of Arty, Railguns, and Beams. A competently flown Drake will beat any other LR t2 BC. It'll beat a RailRox, it'll beat an ArtyCane, it'll beat a BeamHarbi (Harbieam?).


Any of the 3 other tier 2 battlecruisers can be made to point, tank 400 dps, and have over 130 DPS. That would be the requirements to beat that fit 100% of the time in a 1v1 assuming no operator error on either side.


Missed where we were talking about special snowflake fits vs fleet fits in contrived setups.

Gonna show me that other BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?


So you're saying you want every BC to have the exact same capabilities?

You didn't refute his point that any of the 3 other BCs can take down a drake 1v1 - or at least eventually force the drake to disengage when it runs out of ammo. When it comes to fleet doctrines, sure the drake's range makes it deadly.. but some ship is always going to have a greater range, unless you want everything to be cookie cutter - apparently you do.
Pipa Porto
#109 - 2012-09-25 19:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
So you're saying you want every BC to have the exact same capabilities?

You didn't refute his point that any of the 3 other BCs can take down a drake 1v1 - or at least eventually force the drake to disengage when it runs out of ammo. When it comes to fleet doctrines, sure the drake's range makes it deadly.. but some ship is always going to have a greater range, unless you want everything to be cookie cutter - apparently you do.


The Drake is not and has never been a strong 1v1 ship. It's not being nerfed because of its 1v1 capabilities.

With fleets, it's the combination of Damage, Range and Tank that makes it so deadly.

Heck, show me another BC (non-tier3) that can put out 400DPS at 70km. Ignore Tank.


RailBCs don't show up as modern fleetcomps because they're missing damage (and range).
ArtyBCs don't show up as modern fleetcomps because they're missing range.
BeamBCs don't show up as modern fleetcomps because they're missing... everything?

Now for short range BCs (which aren't significantly used for strategic targets)...
AC BCs show up because Canes have Neuts
BlasterBCs don't really show up in shortrange fleets.
Pulse BC's show up because people like dying first.
Missile people show up in HML Drakes.... hmm...

So no, it's not just the range. It's the combination of Range, Tank, and DPS (The DPS of an AC Cane running Barrage but hitting out to 70km). Nerfing the Drake will allow other BCs to be competitive with the Drake as a viable fleet composition*.


*Which, uhhhh, is about the opposite of promoting "cookie cutter" fleet comps.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#110 - 2012-09-25 20:07:29 UTC
My poor Nighthawk is never going to get the attention it deserves...instead its weapon system is getting nerfed. Outstanding...
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#111 - 2012-09-26 02:39:05 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay


Except that they weren't overpowered, and anyone with two wits to rub together knows this.

Next!

Ni.
Pipa Porto
#112 - 2012-09-26 03:02:08 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay


Except that they weren't overpowered, and anyone with two wits to rub together knows this.

Next!


Name a BC based Fleet Doctrine that's used for strategic Ops that's not DrakeFleet.

OR

Name the counters to the Drake Fleet that don't cost double what the DrakeFleet it counters costs*.


As for the Tengu, LoL @ 100mn Tengu not OP.


*i.e. if it counters at 1 to 1, each ship shouldn't cost more than Double what a Drake costs. If it counters at 1 to 2 drakes, each ship shouldn't cost more than 4 times what a Drake costs.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#113 - 2012-09-26 04:17:33 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay


Except that they weren't overpowered, and anyone with two wits to rub together knows this.

Next!


Name a BC based Fleet Doctrine that's used for strategic Ops that's not DrakeFleet.

OR

Name the counters to the Drake Fleet that don't cost double what the DrakeFleet it counters costs*.


As for the Tengu, LoL @ 100mn Tengu not OP.


*i.e. if it counters at 1 to 1, each ship shouldn't cost more than Double what a Drake costs. If it counters at 1 to 2 drakes, each ship shouldn't cost more than 4 times what a Drake costs.


So you buff other ships, not nerf others. Nerfing is not always the solution...
Pipa Porto
#114 - 2012-09-26 04:29:13 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So you buff other ships, not nerf others. Nerfing is not always the solution...


So you buff all the other BCs so they all are OP compared to HACs, T3s and Battleships. Then you Buff HACs, T3s and Battleships to compensate. Then, oh wait, Frigates are screwed, so you buff those, then you notice Capitals are not being used because Battleships... and so on.

Spiraling Power Creep is certainly not the answer. 2 of the Tier 2 BCs are pretty good. They're clearly stronger than their related cruisers (but at some cost, mostly in speed), but they don't totally overshadow them (when was the last time you saw people flying Caracals instead of Drakes?), and they're not providing Range, DPS, and Tank similar to that of Battleships.

The Cane's getting some of its freedom to fit everything ever all the time taken away, and the Drake's losing its ridiculous DPS at range (remember, HMLs are meant to compare with Arty, Beams, and Railguns, but instead their DPS is comparable with ACs and Pulses).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-09-26 05:08:06 UTC
HMLs need a nerf. Any ****** who cant see that just needs to compare the other medium long ranged weapon systems. This isnt game breaking, its game fixing. Quit your crying about the sky falling. If people DO unsub because their super easy mode pve ship cant project the same dps as med blasters out to 110 kms anymore, I for one wont be sorry to see the door hit em in the ass on the way out.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-09-26 05:27:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:
Ahem.



Adapt or die.


Yawn.

People do like to throw these meaningless little quotes around. I suppose they form a purpose if you are too lazy to post something worth reading Cool


Doesn't make it any less true. This is hardly the first nerf mission runners have faced and far from the biggest. Its only really impacting two ships which eveyone with half a brain knew were overdue a nerf.



Not really, has it stands it will mostly affect all the other missiles ships able to use HM's if their bonuses are not changed.

Drake max range up to 70max? hell yeah I'm all for it!! But remember Drake is supposed to have 2 major changes: +5kin changed for a +missile speed and +5resist changed for a +rof, this is absolutely not a nerf but a huge buff.

Tengu max range 90 km instead of 130? -hell yeah, everyday !! Now how much will Tengu get nerf knowing it's a missile spewer (rof) and knowing next HM's change is -flight time BUT: +impact speed, less base explosion radius and +base speed?
Now for people start blahblah about Tengu dps let me throw this at your face: 3 faction mfs+proteus+rig+implant= 1400dps+
Who the heck is the dumb guy about to give me a Tengu with that much dps? -because I want it, hell if my proteus can do that I want my tengu to do as well with his shortest mid weapon system!!

Now what about all the ships not having rof/speed/dmg bonus? -because has it stands right now the only ships that are getting in line with their counterparts are Drake and Tengu but all others using HM's will become painfull/useless unless after revamp those ships bonus are also changed.

brb
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#117 - 2012-09-26 06:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
There is an ounce of clue in this thread.

Due to the low quality of human matter in NPC corps, these changes are regarded as OMG DRAEK NERVV UNSUB!!111 without understanding the changes.

0. HML nerf will affect the amount of total PVE output at least until people realize it wasn't that big of a nerf, and adjust their methods. Tengu is the botting ship, and lower dps will decrease botting efficiency for a while.

1. Meta item markets return to their previous, healthy levels, inflation is curbed.

2. Tengu (and Drake) demand will decrease as it's no longer seen as the ultimate goal for everything in EVE (not claiming this has ever been true)

3. These two being the most sold combat ships by a massive margin, it will have an impact on the market (sell Drake BPO)

4. Nanorib prices will continue to fall due to lower demand (less Tengus built)

5. Wormholers start a massive campaign to drive farmers out of w-space for good

6. Nanorib prices return to normal as supply is smaller

7. Everything returns to normal, except more balanced.

.
Pipa Porto
#118 - 2012-09-26 06:20:42 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Now for people start blahblah about Tengu dps let me throw this at your face: 3 faction mfs+proteus+rig+implant= 1400dps+
Who the heck is the dumb guy about to give me a Tengu with that much dps? -because I want it, hell if my proteus can do that I want my tengu to do as well with his shortest mid weapon system!!


Because your Proteus can project its DPS to the ranges a Tengu can. Roll

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2012-09-26 06:23:22 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
My poor Nighthawk is never going to get the attention it deserves...instead its weapon system is getting nerfed. Outstanding...


Its time for teircide will come.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2012-09-26 06:25:28 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:



Not really, has it stands it will mostly affect all the other missiles ships able to use HM's if their bonuses are not changed.

Drake max range up to 70max? hell yeah I'm all for it!! But remember Drake is supposed to have 2 major changes: +5kin changed for a +missile speed and +5resist changed for a +rof, this is absolutely not a nerf but a huge buff.

Tengu max range 90 km instead of 130? -hell yeah, everyday !! Now how much will Tengu get nerf knowing it's a missile spewer (rof) and knowing next HM's change is -flight time BUT: +impact speed, less base explosion radius and +base speed?
Now for people start blahblah about Tengu dps let me throw this at your face: 3 faction mfs+proteus+rig+implant= 1400dps+
Who the heck is the dumb guy about to give me a Tengu with that much dps? -because I want it, hell if my proteus can do that I want my tengu to do as well with his shortest mid weapon system!!

Now what about all the ships not having rof/speed/dmg bonus? -because has it stands right now the only ships that are getting in line with their counterparts are Drake and Tengu but all others using HM's will become painfull/useless unless after revamp those ships bonus are also changed.


This is where teircide comes inBlink