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Wasted space
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#141 - 2012-09-26 00:26:12 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Skills won't train unless you're logged in and staring at the skill window.

Actually I spotted the flaw in your argument here.

I'm not saying you CAN'T produce while you're not there.

I'm saying that WHILE producing your gear is very vulnerable.

Whether you're there to defend or not is up to you.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-09-26 00:33:27 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
No you don't. You can now because you can drop back on the timer.

Nothing's stopping us from having a char waiting in the POSes for someone to attack it, and put it into reinforced. We do this today with POS timers, what makes you think anything would change here?

Touval Lysander wrote:
My OP pointed this out. I asked why it's empty. One of the frst comments is they are "on ops".

Actually, if they're not on ops, chances are they're either logged out of the game entirely or running L4s in hisec or FW farmville on an alt.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Now let me drop (let's say the same apocs you mentioned) onto 5 of your tech moons while you're trying to kick my butt a trillion miles away.

And before you've made a dent in the shields they'd be in reinforced until you get bored and leave (or some home defense fleet stomps you out like a bug, whichever comes first vOv).

Touval Lysander wrote:
What are you going to do? How serious is it if I can kill your tech POS BEFORE you get back.

Implying we would have to "get back".

Touval Lysander wrote:
And you're missing the point. With full TZ coverage, you can produce away 24/7. I'm not disputing this. Being there is not to produce, being there is to defend it WHILE it produces (and subsequently VERY vulnerable).

That's a guns or butter choice you need to make.

Which means we'd be able to run at more or less full capacity, while everyone else would be missing their POSes. Including lowsec and portions of hisec.

And, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why we should "drop space" just because some POSes are shot at.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#143 - 2012-09-26 00:34:50 UTC
Actually, since you guys are so keen on positng let's change tack.

What would YOU do to change the status quo on sov. Stop just bashing MY argument and come up with something that WOULD work.

1) Nerfing highsec is NOT an option. That will just bug out subs.
2) Buffing null is going to make the situation worse because the napfests are just going to take MOAR.
3) Even with a 0.0 buff, the super alliance is simply not counterable effectively or sustainably.

As it stands I (and probably thousands of others) wouldn't bother with null.

I am trying to at least try to consider what would make me.

(And following your logic that it's about 0.0 so it "must be a goon bash" then I wanna come out and bash goons - now we're beyond that can we move forward?)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-09-26 00:34:54 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

That's a guns or butter choice you need to make.


And I keep pointing out that we have the manpower for both guns and butter, and no amount of hand waving on your part makes that point moot.

Your idea is still dumb because it would screw any one who wants to drop a POS but doesn't have 10000 friends to help defend it.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#145 - 2012-09-26 00:42:47 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why we should "drop space" just because some POSes are shot at.

So put 'em in reo. NONE of them produce.

I just shoot and log. Shoot and log. You gonna have to come get me.

Let me do it to 5 tech moons. 10, 15. Who cares.

How long before someone realises that fleet MUST be there to get it producing?
How long before someone goes, "this is costing too much"?
How long before someone says " wtf!! we gotta break off and go back again!!"

Now let me step it up to 20, 50, 100 POS's over days, weeks, months. Who cares what they produce.

Watcha gonna do?

At what point does someone go. OH ffs, CCP, DO SOMETHING!!!

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#146 - 2012-09-26 00:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

That's a guns or butter choice you need to make.


And I keep pointing out that we have the manpower for both guns and butter, and no amount of hand waving on your part makes that point moot.

Your idea is still dumb because it would screw any one who wants to drop a POS but doesn't have 10000 friends to help defend it.

And I call this for the maniacal BS it is.

And for the umpteenth time - I don't need 10,000 friends to PROTECT the POS. I need 10,000 friends for the POS to PRODUCE.

I might be quite happy to just use the POS to stage and harrass you day after day after day. Coming after my pimped POS to clear me out is going to hurt.

You WILL shrink.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Ghazu
#147 - 2012-09-26 00:47:16 UTC
Nerfing highsec is not an option but your shitstupid idea is?
Define vulnerable? Define "Being There". Is your new idea the exact same mechanics except for the lack of timers? Gee that would solve all the sov problems.
If your actions warrants a ping, you will suddenly see that we are all there.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#148 - 2012-09-26 00:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Ghazu wrote:
Nerfing highsec is not an option but your shitstupid idea is?
Define vulnerable? Define "Being There". Is your new idea the exact same mechanics except for the lack of timers? Gee that would solve all the sov problems.
If your actions warrants a ping, you will suddenly see that we are all there.

lol. I know you will.

But WHERE's YOUR INVASION FLEET now? Can you sustain 100% forward or will you be forced to pull some back?

Come on guys. At least get an FC on your poastings and mount something sustainable.

I'm answering same ol' same ol'....

And hey. Nerfing highsec ain't gonna do jack. You know it I know it. It's just going to make it 2 places I don't wanna be in.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-09-26 00:53:07 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
1) Nerfing highsec is NOT an option. That will just bug out subs.

Bullshit. They always say that, and it never holds water.

Gradually increase the sales tax to, say, 5-10%, gradually reduce the refinery efficiency, gradually reduce the number of manufacturing slots, and hisec's done nerfed when it comes to its efficiency for manufacturing versus hisec.

They'll ***** and whine about how it'll "ruin hisec" and "prices will skyrocket", but they took the price hikes through the ice interdiction and otec and prema hulkageddon and drone gunmining nerf etc etc etc without complaining, they'll deal with this just as well too.

Touval Lysander wrote:
2) Buffing null is going to make the situation worse because the napfests are just going to take MOAR.

Bullshit. Nullsec needs a buff to decouple it from hisec. Deklein, as it stands, can't even build enough T2 ammo for a single maelstrom fleet for a single op. Nullsec needs a massive boost for industry, refining and manufacturing needs to have a buff (i.e. it needs to be readily available in the same station and the stations need a fucktonne more slots for both manufacturing, copying, research and invention.
Touval Lysander wrote:
3) Even with a 0.0 buff, the super alliance is simply not counterable effectively or sustainably.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that, I'd be a rich man.

Touval Lysander wrote:
As it stands I (and probably thousands of others) wouldn't bother with null.

I am trying to at least try to consider what would make me.

(And following your logic that it's about 0.0 so it "must be a goon bash" then I wanna come out and bash goons - now we're beyond that can we move forward?)

The thing which keeps "small alliances" from taking to null isn't the fact they can't bash POSes without reinforcement timers, it's the fact that a single alliance can, as long as it can outblob the enemy, defend up to 6 (I believe it is) different fronts at the same time.

However, I've gone through this already in an earlier post, I'm not going to bother going through it again since you'll just ignore it and blather on about your trainwreck of an idea about "shooting POSes without reinforcement timers"

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#150 - 2012-09-26 01:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Lord Zim wrote:
...stuff

Are Goons still taking ground and if the answer is yes then

Tell me bro, who gonna win?

Now tell me again how nerfing high gonna change THIS.

I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null. They don't like bad men who wanna touch 'em. End of story.

People like ME might go back to null if 0.0 was buffed. Conceeded. But nerfing highsec WON'T make me move. The difference is not all that subtle.

But I tell you what. Being able to drop a DS POS and hassle Goonies Tech POS's in RT just might make me go there too......

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-09-26 01:04:37 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Actually, since you guys are so keen on positng let's change tack.

What would YOU do to change the status quo on sov. Stop just bashing MY argument and come up with something that WOULD work.

1) Nerfing highsec is NOT an option. That will just bug out subs.
2) Buffing null is going to make the situation worse because the napfests are just going to take MOAR.
3) Even with a 0.0 buff, the super alliance is simply not counterable effectively or sustainably.

As it stands I (and probably thousands of others) wouldn't bother with null.

I am trying to at least try to consider what would make me.

(And following your logic that it's about 0.0 so it "must be a goon bash" then I wanna come out and bash goons - now we're beyond that can we move forward?)



Nerfing highsec is an option. True, too heavy handed of a nerf would drive away subs. Some of those subs (massive afk ice mining fleets) we could probably live without. I would start with raising taxes and fees on everything in highsec. You want to live in the nice neighborhood with all the services and unbeatable police force? Pay up.

The right kinds of buffs to nullsec could actually help pull back the system footprint of large alliances. Right now they need to be big to hold on to far flung high value moons and/or control regions so they can rent them out. If line member activities in nullsec were buffed and systems put in place so they could be adequately taxed, alliances wouldn't need all that space, and would instead make all their revenue off the space their members actually use. instead, the current system rewards holding far off moons in empty systems while the line members log into alts and farm faction warfare.

As it stands now though, if it is 10 jumps from our capitol to a tech moon, we are going to do our best to own every system from here to there, even if they are crappy systems. We'll own it just so no one else owns it and gets between us and that moon.

However, if we can make decent enough money from members ratting, mining and manufacturing within 3 jumps of our capitol, then we'll just bother with owning those nearby systems.

Also, the player made outposts we drop should have better services than those found in the starter systems, the highest of highsec. Instead they are pretty much worse in every way and cost 20bil a pop. A reason systems stay empty is because there is no station to park in. And our choice of stations is so crappy we don't even bother, and we just tell people who want factory and research slots to head to highsec, where they are cheap, plentiful, and protected by unbeatable npc police.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-09-26 01:12:24 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
But WHERE's YOUR INVASION FLEET now? Can you sustain 100% forward or will you be forced to pull some back?

I don't think you quite realize just how much of a military capacity we have.

Touval Lysander wrote:
So put 'em in reo. NONE of them produce.

I just shoot and log. Shoot and log. You gonna have to come get me.

Let me do it to 5 tech moons. 10, 15. Who cares.

How long before someone realises that fleet MUST be there to get it producing?
How long before someone goes, "this is costing too much"?
How long before someone says " wtf!! we gotta break off and go back again!!"

Now let me step it up to 20, 50, 100 POS's over days, weeks, months. Who cares what they produce.

Please tell me you want the POSes to be changed so they can be popped within 10 minutes by 10 people if they're not in reinforced, that way we can derp around the entire galaxy AND still keep a good-sized defense fleet at home.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Watcha gonna do?

At what point does someone go. OH ffs, CCP, DO SOMETHING!!!

The point when someone goes "oh ffs CCP DO SOMETHING" would be when hisec realizes just how **** your ideas are, and just how detrimental they are to the economy.

And, I'm still not seeing why any of this should make us "drop space" which you keep harping on and on about.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2012-09-26 01:14:01 UTC
npc corp poster fantasizes publicly of being the rambo to the CFC's us marshals
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#154 - 2012-09-26 01:20:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
npc corp poster fantasizes publicly of being the rambo to the CFC's us marshals

You scared I could?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-09-26 01:21:25 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Are Goons still taking ground and if the answer is yes then

Tell me bro, who gonna win?

This makes no sense. Try again.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Now tell me again how nerfing high gonna change THIS.

Nor does this. Try again.

Touval Lysander wrote:
I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null. They don't like bad men who wanna touch 'em. End of story.

I don't give a **** about people who actually live in hisec because nullsec is too scary, I would want nullsec to actually be worth living in for those who are fighting there now. It currently isn't worth it, as you've seen when flying through our space, and your terrible ideas won't change this fact either.

Touval Lysander wrote:
People like ME might go back to null if 0.0 was buffed. Conceeded. But nerfing highsec WON'T make me move. The difference is not all that subtle.

I don't give a **** if you would move back to nullsec if hisec was nerfed, that wouldn't be part of the reason for nerfing hisec. Hisec should be nerfed because it's too good in comparison to nullsec, and as a result nullsec would have to be buffed too much to entice people to stop running L4s or farm FW instead of running anoms, mining or manufacturing/inventing/etc in nullsec.

Touval Lysander wrote:
But I tell you what. Being able to drop a DS POS and hassle Goonies Tech POS's in RT just might make me go there too......

It's cute you think you would be able to hassle us. You and what **** army?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-09-26 01:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Shepard Wong Ogeko
Touval Lysander wrote:

I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null.



It is not so much to make highsec players move to nullsec. It is more about getting are own guys to stop using highsec as a crutch.

As a goon, if you are really into large scale PvP, nullsec is a great place to hang out.

But...


If you like to manufacture, run spreadsheets and turn minerals into popular ships and mods to make some isk, you will have an easier time AND make more isk doing it in highsec.

If you just want to mindless shoot asteroids for a bit of isk while chatting with your friends or watching TV, you will have an easier time and make almost as much isk doing it in highsec.

You want to make isk using some of those PvP skills and ships you have built up? Highsec L4's offer good isk, low risk, and will always have something available in your own private piece of deadspace. Lowsec Faction Warfare pays an order of magnitude more, for negligible risk.

You want to play the markets, be some space Gordon Gekko making billions on arbitrage? Better go to a highsec market hub because nullsec industry is non-existent outside of supercap production, so you'll have nothing to really wheel and deal in until you are a multi-billionaire.



See a pattern here? For people who want to play in nullsec, when it comes time to make some isk for yourself, the answer is almost always "go to highsec". Lowsec wasn't even an option till they revamped faction warfare a few months ago. If you really want to live full time in nullsec, there are a few niche industries (not enough for everyone interested) and there are anomaly and belt rats, but these can get crowded because you have to run them a lot to make enough isk to cover the costs of living in nullsec (importing all your ammo, mods and hulls).

Highsec doesn't just need to be nerfed because it pays too good for being the easymode of Eve. It also needs to be nerfed so that our own alliance members don't do a serious cost/benefit analysis and move there full time, while only logging into null for fleet fights. Of course, this needs a corresponding nullsec buff to bring our members back.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#157 - 2012-09-26 01:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Lord Zim wrote:
I don't think you quite realize just how much of a military capacity we have.

I can guess. The problem is that the super blob is and always has been a major problem (and will remain so) because it IS too easy to obtain and retain space.

In reality, what I'm asking for is a way to make very large forces react meausrably to a smaller force. How that's done is open for debate. My POS idea is one such idea, even if for some, it's a bad one.

If the size of the Goons means you get to keep 99% of space then so be it - I'm not denying the RIGHT to the space. But I betcha you can't. If people have a way to come at you, then it's going to liven things up.

And it may be just for gigglez. A lot like Goons in highsec type gigglez. God forbid 'ey Goon?

Quote:

The point when someone goes "oh ffs CCP DO SOMETHING" would be when hisec realizes just how **** your ideas are, and just how detrimental they are to the economy.

So when Goons dropped on all the Mack miners and pushed around the ice market the Eve economy collapsed?

Stop using the "market" as a reason to prevent anybody from doiing anything. If that were true then Goons activity in highsec would have been rofl-stomped by CCP a long time ago. It's not the issue you think it is because ppl will just use/make/fly something else.

Quote:
And, I'm still not seeing why any of this should make us "drop space" which you keep harping on and on about.

Because you won't accept that ANY sized fleet might not be big enough to defend it ALL. You gotta go beyond that belief son.

In RL a mozzie can stop a bull.

In Eve I need a 105 and I have to fire twice.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Ghazu
#158 - 2012-09-26 01:59:41 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Nerfing highsec is not an option but your shitstupid idea is?
Define vulnerable? Define "Being There". Is your new idea the exact same mechanics except for the lack of timers? Gee that would solve all the sov problems.
If your actions warrants a ping, you will suddenly see that we are all there.

lol. I know you will.

But WHERE's YOUR INVASION FLEET now? Can you sustain 100% forward or will you be forced to pull some back?

Come on guys. At least get an FC on your poastings and mount something sustainable.

I'm answering same ol' same ol'....

And hey. Nerfing highsec ain't gonna do jack. You know it I know it. It's just going to make it 2 places I don't wanna be in.

Pull back for what? Even with no timers, the problem of sov is the boring structure grinds, which involves capitals, which ironically gets us logged in.
All I see is a scrub who can't offer up the goods to warrant a ping but still wants us to "be there" for no goddamn reason.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#159 - 2012-09-26 02:05:58 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

I agree that a nerf to highsec will not **** off the highseccers. They'll suck it up. But it won't make 'em go to null.


It is not so much to make highsec players move to nullsec. It is more about getting are own guys to stop using highsec as a crutch.

As a goon, if you are really into large scale PvP, nullsec is a great place to hang out.

But...
...Of course, this needs a corresponding nullsec buff to bring our members back.

I can see the problem here but is it a self-made problem? I won't go into the fact (it's been done to death) that the real wealth of 0.0 is not in the hands of the members.

Having said that, I also know a vast majoirty of that wealth goes towards paying the sov to give them somewhere to play etc. etc...

And in a way perhaps the size of your sov is also the problem. Would this concept (if you can accept that you'd be forced to shrink) bring in the boundaries? Dividends start going out to the members from the savings? I dunno.

I'm clutching but it's opening the debate.

When all is said and done though, making 0.0 even richer is going to make the problem technically worse because the massive ball cannot be made to shrink.

When 0.0 is repeatedly called nothing more than blobfest, napfest (by high/low and 0.0 inhabitants) etc. maybe that is the problem that needs to be addressed. Is making it richer a solution w/o addressing the fundamental flaw?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-09-26 02:08:40 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
In reality, what I'm asking for is a way to make very large forces react meausrably to a smaller force. How that's done is open for debate. My POS idea is one such idea, even if for some, it's a bad one.

It's a bad idea, through and through. It's a direct buff to GSF, the CFC and the HBC, and a direct nerf to all the small alliances out there. If you still won't fathom this, then I don't know what to tell you.

Touval Lysander wrote:
If the size of the Goons means you get to keep 99% of space then so be it - I'm not denying the RIGHT to the space. But I betcha you can't. If people have a way to come at you, then it's going to liven things up.

Shooting our POSes will never have an effect on how much space we hold, because they're not linked to sov in any way, shape or form.

Touval Lysander wrote:
So when Goons dropped on all the Mack miners and pushed around the ice market the Eve economy collapsed?

Stop using the "market" as a reason to prevent anybody from doiing anything. If that were true then Goons activity in highsec would have been rofl-stomped by CCP a long time ago. It's not the issue you think it is because ppl will just use/make/fly something else.

So in your world, permanently cutting moongoo supply would not have any detrimental effects on hisec whatsoever?

Touval Lysander wrote:
Quote:
And, I'm still not seeing why any of this should make us "drop space" which you keep harping on and on about.

Because you won't accept that ANY sized fleet might not be big enough to defend it ALL. You gotta go beyond that belief son.

We don't have to defend "it ALL", we just have to defend what we've already got. And shooting a few POSes will not make us drop space.

I've told you before what needs to happen to "liven things up", and it doesn't involve basically ******* over everything from nullsec to hisec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat