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Rebalanced mining - hulk vs mack - tweaks needed?

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Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-25 08:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Originally posted by: Bart Starr
Description: Not a rant, but original post contained fair amount caps. They are now removed. Other parts still as they were.

Bart Starr wrote:

If ccp's 'barge buff' goal was to kill off hulkageddon? Congrats, mission accomplished.

If ccp's goal was to balance the exhumer/barge classes? Bigtime miserable failure.

Prior to august 8, we would find a fair number of both macks and hulks.
Today mining is turning into mackinaw online.

Why? Simple.

Miners only care about three things: cargo, yield, ehp. And not equally.
After scanning thousands of hulks/macks over the years, I found:

-Cargo fits (about 60% of the time)
-yield fits (about 30% of the time)
-ehp fits (about 10% of the time)

Clearly, cargo is the most 'desirable trait'.

So, enter the august 8 mining barge fail-patch:

Each 'trait' became the specialty of a different exhumer.

Hulk = yield exhumer
mack = cargo exhumer
skiff = ehp exhumer.

Heres the problem:
when you rank each exhumer by 'trait', the imbalance becomes clear. Imagine its the olympics and gold, silver and bronze medals are awarded for each characteristic.

Cargo event, (most desired trait): mack #1, skiff #2, hulk #3
yield event, (2nd most important): hulk #1, mack #2, skiff #3
ehp event, (3rd most important): skiff #1, mack #2, hulk #3.

Mackinaw is #1, #2 and #2. (A gold and two silvers, with the gold in the most important category)
hulk is #1, #3 and #3, (a gold and two bronzes, and distant 3rds at that.)
skiff is #1, #2 and #3, (gold, silver, bronze - a nice balance if the mack wasn't 'just better')

Mackinaw clearly comes out well ahead of the other two.
Not only is it, by a large margin, the best in the most important category, its a strong second in the others. Hulks and skiffs fall by the wayside as the mackinaw becomes the obvious choice.

This same mistake is repeated in the t1 mining barges as well.

(Note to resident isd: here's where I provide a helpful solution, hopefully placing this thread outside of your ever-flexible definition of a rant)

Easiest solution?
Swap the ehp of the hulk and the mackinaw.

Each exhumer becomes: 1st in one category, 2nd in another, and 3rd in the last.
1-2-3 For each exhumer, and the goal of tiericide is achieved - 3 exhumers without a 'obvious' best choice.

While the mackinaw will still likely be the most popular (best in cargo) the imbalance would not be quite so obviously pronounced.

As a bonus, the abusive 'afk' nature of the mackinaw would be balanced by its lower ehp and vulnerability to solo ganks when failfit. Pit the natural desire to lazy-afk mine vs higher risk of getting ganked. Hulk miners earn their keep through cargo management, mackinaw miners earn it by fitting tank and watching out for danger.

Its balance 101 - class dismissed. Study harder next time, devs.

Oh, and I'll do a pre-emptive strike: am I mad? No.big smile


My personal comments to the subject:
I believe that this post has some very valid facts and the suggested swap could be something worth thinking about. At least it is definitely something worth discussing *snip*


EDIT: Just leave out the discussion of moderation please - ISD Type40.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#2 - 2012-09-25 08:16:49 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:

My personal comments to the subject:
I believe that this post has some very valid facts and the suggested swap could be something worth thinking about. At least it is definitely something worth discussing about and not something you lock as "rant".


It might contain some valid info, but not calling the above tripe for a rant is silly.

If there was some validity then please present it, in less than a wall of ranting.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#3 - 2012-09-25 08:21:30 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
It might contain some valid info, but not calling the above tripe for a rant is silly.

If there was some validity then please present it, in less than a wall of ranting.
Read a lot worse "rants" to be honest.

It's blunt, but its feedback.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#4 - 2012-09-25 08:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Flattered to see some others on here liked the post - even if certain other denziens can't distinguish it from incoherent 'ranting'.

*snip*

Admittedly, Caps was a bad idea.

Mackinaws seriously need a second balancing pass though.

Actually most of these ideas were fleshed out in the Barge threadnaught, but Devs already stated they don't bother reading threadnaughts - so thought these ideas would get some attention in a fresh post.

EDIT: You can leave that kind of thing out of your posts thank you - ISD Type40.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#5 - 2012-09-25 08:31:11 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Admittedly, Caps was a bad idea.
My eyes are not happy with you son. ;)
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-09-25 08:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Yea... any way thinking about it from out of the box, having less cargo space would technically mean more space for armor plating and other way around. That would support the idea to swap the tanks.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-09-25 08:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
This thread will be left open as Grey has removed the trolling and unnecessary parts of this thread.

While we appreciate that there are things that do not make sense to players, or that they feel certain game mechanics or changes could be re-assessed, using threads to troll, rant and insult members of staff or other players will not be tolerated.

All we ask is that you post sensibly and as constructively as possible, that way your ideas and thoughts will not end up getting lost due to breaches of forum rules. Hopefully this thread can lead to a good discussion, as always CCP likes to know what its players think - ISD Type40.


EDIT: Removed an off topic troll post, keep it on topic and troll free please.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#8 - 2012-09-25 08:39:53 UTC

Essentially the problem is this:

Mackinaws are ranked 1-2-2 in all categories that matter, while the Hulk is 1-3-3 and the Skiff is 1-2-3.

The imbalance is further compounded by the Mack being far superior in the most important category. (cargo)

My feeling is that CCP made the mistake of thinking 'Yield' was the most desired trait in an Exhumer, when it clearly was not - and any experienced ganker could tell you that. So when they gave the Hulk the best 'yield' they thought making it the worst in the two other categories was 'balance'.

As is, Mack/Retriever is the clear winner and markets and belt populations are reflecting that.

Had the additional affect of killing Hulkageddon, because while CCP made a point of hinting, "Well, you can still kill Hulks, we only buffed them a little...."
Then, due to the above balance issues and cargo issues - almost nobody flies them anymore...

A 1-2-3 layout for each Exhumer, would go a long way to fixing the problem: (possibly, also with a slightly larger gap between Mack Yield and Skiff Yield.)

EHP: Skiff > Hulk > Mack
Cargo: Mack > Skiff > Hulk
Yield: Hulk > Mack > Skiff

This is achieved by simply switching the Armor/Shield/Hull stats of the Hulk and the Mack. Easy.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#9 - 2012-09-25 08:41:00 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
It might contain some valid info, but not calling the above tripe for a rant is silly.

If there was some validity then please present it, in less than a wall of ranting.
Read a lot worse "rants" to be honest.

It's blunt, but its feedback.

Actually bothered to read the tripe.

And no, it fails to contain any value at all.

Please point out one single valid point in that wall of text.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-09-25 08:43:01 UTC
I did a Macki fit tonight. 32K EHP with base 35K on the ore hold and while it was the first time in a year where I had no problem mining, the yield loss I had was substantial. 350,000 Dense Veld to fill and it was taking me close to half an hr. I figure I would get an average of a mill Dense an hr in the right belt. Seems like a sensible trade to me.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#11 - 2012-09-25 08:50:34 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
It might contain some valid info, but not calling the above tripe for a rant is silly.

If there was some validity then please present it, in less than a wall of ranting.
Read a lot worse "rants" to be honest.

It's blunt, but its feedback.

Actually bothered to read the tripe.

And no, it fails to contain any value at all.

Please point out one single valid point in that wall of text.


"Overall, Cargo space is the most highly valued trait in an Exhumer."

Its why, prior to Aug 8, 2/3 of all Exhumers (Hulks/Macks) were cargo fit.
And why today, Macks/Retrievers are dominant.

Go ahead, dispute it so we can laugh at you.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-25 08:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Bart Starr wrote:

Essentially the problem is this:

Mackinaws are ranked 1-2-2 in all categories that matter, while the Hulk is 1-3-3 and the Skiff is 1-2-3.

The imbalance is further compounded by the Mack being far superior in the most important category. (cargo)

My feeling is that CCP made the mistake of thinking 'Yield' was the most desired trait in an Exhumer, when it clearly was not - and any experienced ganker could tell you that. So when they gave the Hulk the best 'yield' they thought making it the worst in the two other categories was 'balance'.

As is, Mack/Retriever is the clear winner and markets and belt populations are reflecting that.

Had the additional affect of killing Hulkageddon, because while CCP made a point of hinting, "Well, you can still kill Hulks, we only buffed them a little...."
Then, due to the above balance issues and cargo issues - almost nobody flies them anymore...

A 1-2-3 layout for each Exhumer, would go a long way to fixing the problem: (possibly, also with a slightly larger gap between Mack Yield and Skiff Yield.)

EHP: Skiff > Hulk > Mack
Cargo: Mack > Skiff > Hulk
Yield: Hulk > Mack > Skiff

This is achieved by simply switching the Armor/Shield/Hull stats of the Hulk and the Mack. Easy.


Yea I actually mined a while with hulk last week and you have to be pretty focused to keep the cargo hold from not filling up. It takes only one cycle before you have to transfer ore to orca/jetcan. If you accidentally forget to do this, you will lose plenty of ore when next cycles finish. This obviously is something they planned as hulk is meant to be a ship you use in fleets and with orca/roqual support.

However after said that - I too would currently choose mack even for that purpose because of bigger cargo hold and stronger tank. The "lost" yield most likely is gained back on one "hulk cycle" where you forget to empty the ore hold.

If suggested change to tank would be made, my selection process would be more fair towards both ships again.

...so yes - I understand why people prefer to use macks over hulks now.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#13 - 2012-09-25 09:02:58 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:


Yea I actually mined a while with hulk last week and you have to be pretty focused to keep the cargo hold from not filling up. It takes only one cycle before you have to transfer to orca/jetcan. If you accidentally forget to do this, you will lose plenty of ore when next cycles finish. This obviously is something they planned as hulk is meant to be a ship you use in fleets and with orca/roqual support.

However after said that - I too would currently choose mack even for that purpose because of bigger tank and stronger tank. The "lost" yield most likely is gained back on one "hulk cycle" where you forget to empty the ore hold.

If suggested change to tank would be made, my selection process would be more fair towards both ships again.

...so yes - I understand why people prefer to use macks over hulks now.


If you mine in a Hulk and aren't even bothered to watch your cargo once a cycle and transfer to the Orca or jetcan then you are using the wrong ship.

If you have to be really focused to keep up with the mining cycle of a Hulk then you have medical issues or should cut down on drugs while mining.

If you want to mine while watching telly or doing something else, then yes, then a Hulk is the wrong ship.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#14 - 2012-09-25 09:07:07 UTC
Outside of simple 1-2-3 balancing and hopefully encouraging 'true' tiericide....

It has the advantage of balancing AFK 'easy mining' - against ganking again.

My feeling is that a fail tanked/max yield Mack should be around 8-10K EHP. (IE, solo-T2 dessie killable/ Tornado alpha killable)
Naturally, a tanked Mack should have significantly more - over 20K or so.

Retriever should be balanced in a similar way against other barges.

This will help discourage clouds of completely absent AFK farmers - that we have today.
Hulk gets a relative buff to make up for the 'pain in the ass' of managing cargo space.
The added risk of the Mack, plus the extra EHP might convince people to re-consider using the Hulk - perhaps or give the Skiff a try.

Mackinaw gets ability to easy AFK mine - but its balanced with an attendant risk of ganking.
Hulk gets highest yield, but the most annoying cargo hold.
Skiff gets total freedom from ganks, but lowest overall income compared to other two.

I'm sure plenty of miners are completely happy with the current Exhumer situation, but its far from 'balanced'.
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-09-25 09:11:21 UTC
First off, had to remove another troll post. Please do not derail peoples threads.

It may also be worth noting that when it comes to the Hulk lacking the tank that the Mackinaw has, as Bart points out the Hulk is designed around being in a fleet, most likely a player corporation fleet. However that fleet would comprise not just Hulks and Orcas/Haulers, but also protection in the form of combat vessels.

The Mackinaw on the other hand, whilst having a larger hold, is for use by solo miners or people not in player corps. Not being in a player corp would mean that combat defence ships would be unable to come to the miners assistance, thus the requirement for a better tank.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-09-25 09:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
First off, had to remove another troll post. Please do not derail peoples threads.

It may also be worth noting that when it comes to the Hulk lacking the tank that the Mackinaw has, as Bart points out the Hulk is designed around being in a fleet, most likely a player corporation fleet. However that fleet would comprise not just Hulks and Orcas/Haulers, but also protection in the form of combat vessels.

The Mackinaw on the other hand, whilst having a larger hold, is for use by solo miners or people not in player corps. Not being in a player corp would mean that combat defence ships would be unable to come to the miners assistance, thus the requirement for a better tank.



Thank you Bob.
This product is really amazing.
Seriously, the ship balance is just fine if you care to fit them according to their roles and use the ship suitable for the job. As for Macks...a well tanked mac wont get ganked as most gankers ...WAIT FOR IT....shipscan their targets before they go to work. Even a tanked Mack will fall under 5-6 destroyers ...just saying.#
Hulks are nearly extincted anyway. Noone would try to gank a Skiff in highsec as far as it concerns profit. A normal tanked skiff without Damage Control has well over 50 k HP.
Once it is not profitable anymore to gank people will pick up the strategies of James 315 and there will really be a new Order to things in High Sec (I approve of his service to the community)...until CCP banishes bumping...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Hypercake Mix
#17 - 2012-09-25 09:31:22 UTC
Hulk needs to have a stronger base and potential EHP than Mackinaw. The 150m sig radius vs Mackinaw's 250m isn't guaranteed effective like EHP is.

Hulk's Exhumer skill yield bonuses need to be a tad higher. That extra training needs to mean something. The extra micromanagement needs to mean something.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#18 - 2012-09-25 09:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lors Dornick
Hypercake Mix wrote:
Hulk needs to have a stronger base and potential EHP than Mackinaw. The 150m sig radius vs Mackinaw's 250m isn't guaranteed effective like EHP is.


Why? A hulk is supposed to be used i a fleet op and and with a mining director sitting in an Orca.

Which means fat EHP support unless the pilot in the Orca isn't trained as a pure donkey.

Hypercake Mix wrote:

Hulk's Exhumer skill yield bonuses need to be a tad higher. That extra training needs to mean something. The extra micromanagement needs to mean something.


How can anyone refer to the shuffling ore once per cycle of a Hulk as micromanagement?

A Rohk with staggered Miner II and having to shovel ore every 30s seconds is bordering on micromanagement, but a Hulk with unstaggerred strippers?

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-09-25 09:42:43 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:

It may also be worth noting that when it comes to the Hulk lacking the tank that the Mackinaw has, as Bart points out the Hulk is designed around being in a fleet, most likely a player corporation fleet. However that fleet would comprise not just Hulks and Orcas/Haulers, but also protection in the form of combat vessels.

The Mackinaw on the other hand, whilst having a larger hold, is for use by solo miners or people not in player corps. Not being in a player corp would mean that combat defence ships would be unable to come to the miners assistance, thus the requirement for a better tank.

Yep... for exactly this reason I believe that Mack is overpowered compared to 2 others.

If solo miners want big cargo, they should have worst tank and average yield. It is risk vs reward. This kind of ship would be most profitable to solo miner, but also easiest to get ganked in. If they want to solo mine safely, they should choose the ship with least yield and most tank, but only average cargo.

Hulk - as fleet ship - should have average tank, top yield and smallest cargo making it pretty much unusable as solo ship, but with more balanced risk vs reward ratio. It still remains the ship with most hands on attention too and should be something people want to get themselves to. It also means making some social connections inside the game or starting to multibox before you can do anything real with it.

Each ship should have clear downside and clear benefit. Currently that is not the case.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-09-25 09:45:56 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
It may also be worth noting that when it comes to the Hulk lacking the tank that the Mackinaw has, as Bart points out the Hulk is designed around being in a fleet, most likely a player corporation fleet. However that fleet would comprise not just Hulks and Orcas/Haulers, but also protection in the form of combat vessels.

Where is this supposed to be happening? Have you been looking at the majority of ice fields lately? Do you see any combat vessels at all, there?

Do you think, in some weird utopia which doesn't exist in today's EVE, that there'll be "combat vessels" to "protect" these hulks and orcas if we were to look at lowsec or nullsec? No, what they'll do is they'll just do what's the most sensible, i.e. just dock up the instant they're even close to being in any sort of danger, and they'll wait until said danger has passed. There'll be no "combat vessels" anywhere near them.

ISD TYPE40 wrote:
The Mackinaw on the other hand, whilst having a larger hold, is for use by solo miners or people not in player corps. Not being in a player corp would mean that combat defence ships would be unable to come to the miners assistance, thus the requirement for a better tank.

Actually, no, it has a better tank and a bigger cargohold because people whined about having to fit a tank to their mining vessel, instead of adapting to the realities of hisec mining at the time, which meant sacrificing some yield and convenience for survivability.

Hypercake Mix wrote:
Hulk's Exhumer skill yield bonuses need to be a tad higher. That extra training needs to mean something.

Which extra training? There are no skill requirement differences between a mack and a hulk.

Hypercake Mix wrote:
The extra micromanagement needs to mean something.

Which extra micromanagement? Moving the ore into the corp hangar of the orca? You're getting higher yield as it is, the minor added work over a mackinaw isn't sufficient to warrant even further yield increases.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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