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[Winter] ORE frigate

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#121 - 2012-09-23 17:12:22 UTC
Sieonigh wrote:

Cargo capacity: increased to 130~150 [buff, i for see there being things necessary to be carried 50 seems too limiting]


What things?

By the time you have crystals for your modulated miners, surely you'll be in a barge?

And if you've overheating anything enough to need paste, you're probably already dead.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2012-09-23 19:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Sieonigh wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
I like the promise of this.

But I think the +2 warp strenght should be very well reseved for a T2 variant of this ship!

This ship can already fit a cloak, right?


I'm banking that CCP wont do a T2 variant for some time, rather have the bonuses as it is then to nerf it and have them on a T2 version later on.

also bare in mind that is meant to be for new players and as such there need to be a certain amount of hand holding. (i know a thousand of eve players just screamed out at once for saying that and fully expect to see the flame coming my way)
and yes i like to pwne noobs just as much as the other guy but its not fun if they quit after suffering losses.

also to take into account that new players like to feel empowered, lets let feel empowered even though they aren't and need to get some skills under their belt before they can be. thats not to say everything new players should see is a cheep illusion, there should be a desire to contribute and the means to do it. in another words some things have to be given to gain a feeling of confidence.



Good day.

Now, after reading your answear I feel strongly that a new player gets the wrong signal by such a powerful role-bonus. I mean the mining and gas harvesting boni on this T1 hull plus the large ore hold bay is already more than enough to empower a new player to contribute to whatever. That does not mean they should not learn how to use the mwd/cloak trick or how to behave in low security space (and even high, by all means). EVE should not be safe anywhere!

And if they learn by loosing a T1 ore frig, by all means that's how it should be. It's not like he will be loosing a 40 million ISK hull after two days of playing.

So, the warp strength bonus is just too powerful for a ship aiming at new players, hell this thing will even be usable by trial-accounts!

I don't care if CCP does not have the artwork (or whatever) for a T2 variant. Even if we have to wait years on end for a T2 version with warp strength bonus. As it stands, CCP gave the ORE frig too much love and failed to hit the aim. But that's why we are discussing it.

(Btw, I am someone who does not want to shoot newbs in this ship, but instead would exploit this thing with a cheap alt-char army, and still think that role bonus is too powerful.)

Regards,

Savira Terrant

.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#123 - 2012-09-24 12:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Marian Devers
+2 Warp Core Strength and 4.04 align time? With the one low slot and (I assume) 3 rig slots you can bring down that align time to less than 3. How are you supposed to kill this thing solo? Or catch it running gate camps?
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-09-24 12:46:40 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
+2 Warp Core Strength and 4.04 align time? With the one low slot and (I assume) 3 rig slots you can bring down that align time to less than 3. How are you supposed to kill this thing solo? Or catch it running gate camps?

Decloack, lock and kill :) Some ships have no re-calibration time, other ships have it at 3 seconds when fully trained. Fit some sensor boosters and y'r going to catch one. Anyone mining in this thing has some reaction time until he hits "Warp to" - at least some 2 seconds. Do the math.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#125 - 2012-09-24 13:59:11 UTC
Hey folks,

We're going to look into changing the gas harvesting yield bonus into a cycle time, mainly for the reasons you suggested - good catch.

Regarding the ore bay, it does not allow gas to be moved into it, but harvested gas is automatically moved when you do use the ship. It means that if you take the gas out after harvesting it you won't be able to put it back in. We're considering changing ore bays to allow you to carry gas around back and forth to make it more consistent.

Also, we estimate the +2 warp stabilizer bonus to be fine for now - the ship almost has no defense on its own, and desperately needs it to compete in the areas it's supposed to operate.

Regarding the gas yield performance itself, keep in mind this remains an entry level ship, not supposed to outclass the competition in every single area. This ship is highly mobile, has a good storage capacity, it should not be the best at everything regarding gas or we would be falling back into the old Hulk case all over again Blink
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-09-24 14:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Psihius wrote:
Marian Devers wrote:
+2 Warp Core Strength and 4.04 align time? With the one low slot and (I assume) 3 rig slots you can bring down that align time to less than 3. How are you supposed to kill this thing solo? Or catch it running gate camps?

Decloack, lock and kill :) Some ships have no re-calibration time, other ships have it at 3 seconds when fully trained. Fit some sensor boosters and y'r going to catch one. Anyone mining in this thing has some reaction time until he hits "Warp to" - at least some 2 seconds. Do the math.


Combat scan, warp to 0, 4-5 large smartbombs go boom

killed and podded



PS: oh wait, they added that thing that stops you from detonating bombs or releasing probes right after you land.(Something along the lines of "The gravitational field of your ship is being realigned, please wait") Can that be taken out? What does it accomplish?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#127 - 2012-09-24 17:41:27 UTC
what if... you made it able to use a covert cloaking device? thats much much better than a 2+ warp strenght

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#128 - 2012-09-24 17:42:23 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
+2 Warp Core Strength and 4.04 align time? With the one low slot and (I assume) 3 rig slots you can bring down that align time to less than 3. How are you supposed to kill this thing solo? Or catch it running gate camps?



Faction scrambler. Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Simvastatin Montelukast
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#129 - 2012-09-24 18:13:26 UTC
Do noobs even have the scanning skills to find low sec gas sites?
Doddy
Excidium.
#130 - 2012-09-24 18:22:38 UTC
Simvastatin Montelukast wrote:
Do noobs even have the scanning skills to find low sec gas sites?


They are not hard to find, still i suspect actual noobs will mainly be using them in hi sec as they don't realise how worthless hi sec gas is. It will have nice synergy if they adjust the explo career missions to have you go into the grav/ladar site you have probed down and mine/harvest with your ore frig. At the moment you simply get a certificate to take back rather than actually do anything in the site (hacking etc you do actually do something).
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2012-09-24 18:37:33 UTC
To be honest and fair, you can kill this thing if you happen to land in range. If you like faction scrams or destroying the rest of your fit, that is. But why would we have to go to such lengths just to kill a virtually free ship? One that is actually dumbing down new players to a new level. EVE players like the game because the learning curve is steep. Please do not kill the game. (As CCP said themselves somewhere, do not make things easy, make things apprehensible.

Show weapon range in pop-up: making things apprehensible

Give new players +2 warp strength: making things (too) easy ('dumbing down')


New players should learn cloak/mwd trick, before going anywhere near lowsec. You know why I learned it?
Hauling stuff in a T1 industrial. Got killed. Lost all assets. Learned an awesome amount of things, because I asked myself and others what happend. Got the feeling EVE is awesome. Not just some WoW clone. Game for life.

New players after proposal:

Hauling ore and gas into lowsec. Get agressed. Warp away. Leaving game after two weeks, because boring.

(Maybe it is exaggerated, but I want CCP to stop right there and make that sharp line they promised us, between dumbing the game down and make the game apprehensible for new players.)



- CCP, please do not mix "T2 bonuses" and T1 frigs.



CCP Yitterbum, regarding defense - align time and speed are a defensive system in itself and I know you know that. Also medium ancillary shield boosters will fit fine, even with a cloak and mwd. So no problems whatsoever! Even if agressed by rats in 0.0 there is no problem avoiding those. And it has two turret slots, 2 drones and is able to fit whatever damage amp.

Yeah, maybe(!) it can be killed at a 0.0 gatecamp without such bonus. But are you seriously telling us you want 1 day old miners running about 0.0 safer than the average pvp player in their pvp fitted frigates?

I like the general idea of this ship though and adding a T2 version with +2 in a few years would be awesome of course (or rather cov ops cloak? Since we do have a pve ship like this already... Mh...). Hell, do it now, just use the same artwork for now I don't even care. (Though would prefer to see how the T1 plays out first - without +2 warp strength.)

CCP, you have not explained to us why you think this "entry level" ship needs that +2 warp strength bonus. Just that you deem it "fine for now" "in the areas it needs to operate". Well, I don't deem that a helpfull contribution to this topic, since it is not an argument, it just sounds like you want it that way - whatever we say.

So to make it clear, I am far from being pissed or something, but if you want to discuss stuff with us, make arguments. This way, we might understand you someday. (It was CCP announcing upcoming changes for feedback. Here it is.)
I can understand EVE Online is your baby and you want to shape it the way you want, but CCP is also providing service to it's customers. I did get the impression you wanted the customers feedback to pleasure them with your product (within a certain mentality ect. of course). Correct me if I am wrong. Feedback needs real feedback. Make us understand why you think the above, maybe we argue - but maybe we agree and everyone is happy. If we don't agree we can at least understand your positions.


Regards,

Savira Terrant

P.S.: Sorry for the long post and if it is confusing sometimes. I am no native speaker.

.
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#132 - 2012-09-24 18:48:01 UTC
HazeInADaze wrote:
Are they old hulls being repurposed or mothballed? I always like the navitas hull but had no use for it.


Navitas is being rebuilt into one of the four new logi frigs.
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#133 - 2012-09-24 19:01:28 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Hrm...

Two (gas) miner IIs, cloak, MWD, a few shield modules, DCU or nano, rigs to taste, looks like it'll all fit. The ore hold is pretty damn big, but I won't complain. The drones are pretty useless but it's an upgrade path option.

4 sec align time is tasty.


Or try this out:

[ORE Gas Mining Frigate - Chribba]
F85 Peripheral Damage System I

Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I

Gas Cloud Harvester II
Gas Cloud Harvester II
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
[empty rig slot for whatever - CPU if your skills require it]

Hornet EC-300 x2


Aall but unscannable when fit with ECCM. The aligns to warp in 2.6 seconds, cruises around at 450m/s with no prop mod.

With a 5000m3 ore hold and the inherent warp stabs, it's a fantastic ship to fly into neighboring wormholes to do some gas mining. Clear c50s and leave before the rats even spawn.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#134 - 2012-09-25 02:50:33 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
Or try this out:

Clearly I need to think outside the box, that's some good **** right there.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#135 - 2012-09-25 04:13:05 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:

Aall but unscannable when fit with ECCM. The aligns to warp in 2.6 seconds, cruises around at 450m/s with no prop mod.

With a 5000m3 ore hold and the inherent warp stabs, it's a fantastic ship to fly into neighboring wormholes to do some gas mining. Clear c50s and leave before the rats even spawn.


Which seems a bit overpowered for a frigate that will be given away for free by the tutorial missions. What you describe sounds a lot more like what the T2 variant should be capable of, not the freebie T1 version.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#136 - 2012-09-25 05:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Ty Delaney wrote:
Aall but unscannable when fit with ECCM. The aligns to warp in 2.6 seconds, cruises around at 450m/s with no prop mod.

With a 5000m3 ore hold and the inherent warp stabs, it's a fantastic ship to fly into neighboring wormholes to do some gas mining. Clear c50s and leave before the rats even spawn.

Which seems a bit overpowered for a frigate that will be given away for free by the tutorial missions. What you describe sounds a lot more like what the T2 variant should be capable of, not the freebie T1 version.

Clearly the +2 warp strength isn't even needed.

E: My pre-impression of the ship was of something fairly tough with decent speed, but not entirely agile. It was to have a good slot layout, much like the newer combat frigates, which would give newbies plenty of options and maybe even allow the combat-inclined to have some lulz with it. Instead we ended up with an easy-mode miner that has the same "you're too stupid to fit your ship" attitude that the new barges have.

In my opinion it should get one more low slot in exchange for the +2 warp strength, increase the align time by a second or a second and a half, a bit more cap and some additional HP, and maybe a slight drop in scan res.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2012-09-25 07:02:09 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:

Clearly the +2 warp strength isn't even needed.


This.

Karl Hobb wrote:
In my opinion it should get one more low slot in exchange for the +2 warp strength, increase the align time by a second or a second and a half, a bit more cap and some additional HP, and maybe a slight drop in scan res.



And this.

With the scanres it will become the new insta-locker. You basicly throw it away doing it, but hey, it's for free.

.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#138 - 2012-09-25 07:46:34 UTC
The ECCM has no effect on probing anymore IIRC.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Robert Fish
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#139 - 2012-09-25 07:57:40 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Marian Devers wrote:
+2 Warp Core Strength and 4.04 align time? With the one low slot and (I assume) 3 rig slots you can bring down that align time to less than 3. How are you supposed to kill this thing solo? Or catch it running gate camps?



Faction scrambler. Blink


It seems silly having to fit a faction scram to my velator just so i can kill a mining frig.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#140 - 2012-09-25 08:01:23 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
The ECCM has no effect on probing anymore IIRC.


You don't RC, it makes you harder to probe out, but not impossible.

The ECCM is slightly pointless anyway when you can instead just probe out the cosmic signature. It won't get you a warp-in to zero, but a bit of warping-at-range should enable you to land close enough.