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Upcoming "balancing" overall repercussions.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#81 - 2012-09-24 15:39:29 UTC
papamike wrote:
No More Heroes wrote:
Speaker for TheDead wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay



How can anyone use "Overpowered" when discussing a drake? Oops



The drake by itself is quite reasonable as is. If you put 200 or so in a fleet with 30 scimitars, some recons and dics and it becomes an instrument of destruction praying for war.


Considering NCdots current massacre of drake fleets I would seriously doubt this claim.

http://northern-coalition.co.uk/?a=home&scl_id=10

This month alone we are seeing almost 2000 BC kills, mostly drake fleets

http://northern-coalition.co.uk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=203333

Outcomes like this are a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNhF6oriOXM&feature=player_embedded




Your basic simple Drake fleet has been powerful enough for quite some time to necessitate a great deal of thought and planning be invested to come up with viable counters... usually much more expensive counters.

If you doubt the effectiveness enjoyed by Drake fleets for the last couple of years, you're a bit out of touch.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#82 - 2012-09-24 16:16:12 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Less money in the economy, less T3's being produced, less PvP targets, less plex being bought.

I like your posts Cypher but they always come back to this.

I deem you chicken little.

Not today spaghetti.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#83 - 2012-09-24 17:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Not taking any sides in this, but a few of points.

1: After the AI changes, little will change for the solo mission runner, Incursion runner, or WH resident.

2: Range and damage nerfs to HM can easily be compensated for by sacrificing a bit of tank, and frankly many mission ships are over tanked as it is.

3: All other missile types will be more viable than ever before, especially HAM's.

4: Other little used missile boats will have the potential to become useful again, especially in combination with the balancing that is just around the corner.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-09-24 18:06:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
That isn't really going to benefit the CNR though. For example, my CNR fit has 4 BCUs and 3 Rigors - my mid slots are all tank and PG. I wouldn't be prepared to compromise my tank any further and feel that the tanl/gank balance on that hull is as defined as it can be.

Now the Golem is a different matter. Were I able to fit a mod in the Mids to replace the 3 TPs then that would be of massive interest.



TCs/TEs plus Torps is, I think, the general idea of where the new missioning CNR will end up.


Not so much. a TC for the CNR will work wonders for T2 Fury.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#85 - 2012-09-24 18:39:21 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Speaker for TheDead wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay



How can anyone use "Overpowered" when discussing a drake? Oops


Got another BC that can do 400DPS from 70km while sporting a ~70k EHP tank, Prop mod, and Point?

No other BC comes anywhere near to that.

Heck, name any other non-T3 BC that does 400DPS from 70km, ignoring tank, prop mod, and point.


How do you mean? To get all of that out of a drake you need a lot of expensive mods. It can get 70k EHP easy but wont have the 2 mid slots you speak of. You could do it but it would be very expensive. As I said earlier I agree the tank of the drake is OP.

I could make an equally powerful wh or mission running n Myrmidon if I was allowwed to spend as much money.

Unless you aren't talking about omnitank. In which case any of the four tier 2 battlecruisers can run level 4's, and 70kehp is utterly irrelevant.



T2 modules are ever so expensive.
74k EHP, 396 DPS @ 74km, MWD, Point, Web (hey, I had forgotten that this fit has a web. Feel free to swap it for more tank or a TP or some other EWAR.)*

So, which other BC can do that? A Myrm can't reach out anywhere near 70km with the Dual 150s it can fit with a 70k EHP tank (possibly also true of the 250s it can fit without a tank, cba to check), and won't get anywhere near 400 DPS at 70km with its sentries.



*[Drake, Shield Fleet BC]

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


One of the most useless fits I have seen.

The advantage of the drake tank is its huge natural regen. Which this fit does not have.
What is the point in hitting out to 75km if you are close enough to make use of the point and web??
Would be a great PVP fit with HAMs instead of HM's
Don't really see how this fit is sooo great.
Yes it would work well in PVP, but there are many cane fits that would mop the floor with this drake.
Kinet
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-09-24 18:52:50 UTC
Most people who have played with a Drake or have PVP'ed will admit that it is OP but is it OP by 20% damage and 25% range? Dont forget there is also going to be a module that works against missiles now too so in addition to the damage and range, there is also a way to counter missiles coming too.

I'm all for balancing things but IMHO a nerf this drastic will make the Drake much less of a ship than the other tier-2 BC's. Cut that nerf in half and things look a lot more equal to me.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#87 - 2012-09-24 18:57:04 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay


The trouble is, Drake isn't over powered. The other ones are under powered.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#88 - 2012-09-24 19:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Less money in the economy, less T3's being produced, less PvP targets, less plex being bought.

I like your posts Cypher but they always come back to this.

I deem you chicken little.


Lol. I should have specifically said in the OP "The sky is not falling BUT..." instead of "Eve is not dying."

I agree its not going to kill the game, its just going to effect the number of people logged in for a while. I hope not permanently.

Ioci wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
So overpowered ships should remain overpowered because people are using them? kay


The trouble is, Drake isn't over powered. The other ones are under powered.


I actually agree the drake needs a small nerf and i *think* the harbinger needs a small buff, but they just got the t3's rather balanced. At this point I think they should buff loki instead of nerf tengu.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#89 - 2012-09-24 20:15:50 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
How do you mean? To get all of that out of a drake you need a lot of expensive mods. It can get 70k EHP easy but wont have the 2 mid slots you speak of. You could do it but it would be very expensive. As I said earlier I agree the tank of the drake is OP.

I could make an equally powerful wh or mission running n Myrmidon if I was allowwed to spend as much money.

Unless you aren't talking about omnitank. In which case any of the four tier 2 battlecruisers can run level 4's, and 70kehp is utterly irrelevant.



T2 modules are ever so expensive.
74k EHP, 396 DPS @ 74km, MWD, Point, Web (hey, I had forgotten that this fit has a web. Feel free to swap it for more tank or a TP or some other EWAR.)*

So, which other BC can do that? A Myrm can't reach out anywhere near 70km with the Dual 150s it can fit with a 70k EHP tank (possibly also true of the 250s it can fit without a tank, cba to check), and won't get anywhere near 400 DPS at 70km with its sentries.



*[Drake, Shield Fleet BC]


One of the most useless fits I have seen.

The advantage of the drake tank is its huge natural regen. Which this fit does not have.
What is the point in hitting out to 75km if you are close enough to make use of the point and web??
Would be a great PVP fit with HAMs instead of HM's
Don't really see how this fit is sooo great.
Yes it would work well in PVP, but there are many cane fits that would mop the floor with this drake.


Sure, because Regen is so useful in a fleet engagement.
The Web is a placeholder. You can fit more tank or different EWAR as needed. The point is there because you don't always fight at range, but for a dedicated LR fleet fit, you can also drop that for more tank or different EWAR.
ATM, the Drake is much too slow to reliably use HAMs. Not every fleet gets perfect warpins.
Can you show me any other BC that can match this fit's performance then?
This fit does about as much damage as an AC Cane using Barrage, but can keep doing that damage out to 74km.

The fit's not particularly important, it's just the first one I grabbed off my fitting tool. I posted it to demonstrate the fact that you can fit a Drake to do all the things I said it could do without any of the Expensive Mods Cypher complained about.

So, Can you show me any other BC that can do 74k EHP, 396 DPS @ 74km, MWD, and 2 tackle/utility slots?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#90 - 2012-09-24 20:16:59 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Less money in the economy, less T3's being produced, less PvP targets, less plex being bought.

I like your posts Cypher but they always come back to this.

I deem you chicken little.


Lol. I should have specifically said in the OP "The sky is not falling BUT..." instead of "Eve is not dying."

I agree its not going to kill the game, its just going to effect the number of people logged in for a while. I hope not permanently.


What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#91 - 2012-09-24 23:41:42 UTC
Quote:
What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?


None, because you cant take your wh tengu, mission drake, wh drake, pvp drake, mission tengu, or PvP tengu and replace it with a viable alternative in 2 weeks.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#92 - 2012-09-24 23:47:00 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?


None, because you cant take your wh tengu, mission drake, wh drake, pvp drake, mission tengu, or PvP tengu and replace it with a viable alternative in 2 weeks.


Sure you can.

Some of them (esp the PvP Tengu) won't be quite as powerful, but that's what you get for relying solely on one overpowered Ship/Weapons system.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#93 - 2012-09-25 00:04:54 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?


None, because you cant take your wh tengu, mission drake, wh drake, pvp drake, mission tengu, or PvP tengu and replace it with a viable alternative in 2 weeks.


Sure you can.

Some of them (esp the PvP Tengu) won't be quite as powerful, but that's what you get for relying solely on one overpowered Ship/Weapons system.


If that was a viable alternative then it would be commonplace.

Mission times aren't even close, sleeper sites completion times aren't even close. In PvP its a lot more viable than the shitfit you posted.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#94 - 2012-09-25 00:28:29 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?


None, because you cant take your wh tengu, mission drake, wh drake, pvp drake, mission tengu, or PvP tengu and replace it with a viable alternative in 2 weeks.


Sure you can.

Some of them (esp the PvP Tengu) won't be quite as powerful, but that's what you get for relying solely on one overpowered Ship/Weapons system.


If that was a viable alternative then it would be commonplace.

Mission times aren't even close, sleeper sites completion times aren't even close. In PvP its a lot more viable than the shitfit you posted.


So you've already forgotten the fact that TEs and TCs will start affecting Missiles.

Here's the funny thing about changes to games. Sometimes what's viable now and what will be viable after the change are not the same thing.

And right now, Drakes are too slow to really be effective with HAMs and the small amount of extra DPS doesn't compensate for that sluggishness and lack of range.

Speaking of the shitfit, have you found another BC that can come anywhere close to duplicating its capabilities? It being a shitfit and all.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#95 - 2012-09-25 00:39:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
What evidence do you have to suggest that people will quit when they can get the same performance through less than 2 weeks of training?


None, because you cant take your wh tengu, mission drake, wh drake, pvp drake, mission tengu, or PvP tengu and replace it with a viable alternative in 2 weeks.


Sure you can.

Some of them (esp the PvP Tengu) won't be quite as powerful, but that's what you get for relying solely on one overpowered Ship/Weapons system.


If that was a viable alternative then it would be commonplace.

Mission times aren't even close, sleeper sites completion times aren't even close. In PvP its a lot more viable than the shitfit you posted.


So you've already forgotten the fact that TEs and TCs will start affecting Missiles.

Here's the funny thing about changes to games. Sometimes what's viable now and what will be viable after the change are not the same thing.

And right now, Drakes are too slow to really be effective with HAMs and the small amount of extra DPS doesn't compensate for that sluggishness and lack of range.

Speaking of the shitfit, have you found another BC that can come anywhere close to duplicating its capabilities? It being a shitfit and all.


Its capabilities are losing at PvP. Every race is capable of this, every ship, every tier, every tech. All you need is an EFT warrior attitude. Its not just me saying this, read the thread, read killboards. Currently HAM drakes are better at PvP than what you posted. Read this thread, read killboards.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#96 - 2012-09-25 00:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
Its capabilities are losing at PvP. Every race is capable of this, every ship, every tier, every tech. All you need is an EFT warrior attitude. Its not just me saying this, read the thread, read killboards. Currently HAM drakes are better at PvP than what you posted. Read this thread, read killboards.


On killboards I see Drakefleet doctrine fleets standing toe to toe with T3 doctrine fleets of similar numbers and winning.

Drakefleet doctrine is a HML drake doctrine.

So how about this. List which other BC-based doctrine is able to stand toe to toe with similar numbers of T3s and win.


As for telling me to read the thread, you're the one who's already forgotten that TCs and TEs will start affecting HAMs once winter comes around.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#97 - 2012-09-25 01:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Its capabilities are losing at PvP. Every race is capable of this, every ship, every tier, every tech. All you need is an EFT warrior attitude. Its not just me saying this, read the thread, read killboards. Currently HAM drakes are better at PvP than what you posted. Read this thread, read killboards.


On killboards I see Drakefleet doctrine fleets standing toe to toe with T3 doctrine fleets of similar numbers and winning.

Drakefleet doctrine is a HML drake doctrine.

So how about this. List which other BC-based doctrine is able to stand toe to toe with similar numbers of T3s and win.


As for telling me to read the thread, you're the one who's already forgotten that TCs and TEs will start affecting HAMs once winter comes around.


CAN IT BE ANY CLEARER THAT I DON'T GIVE A **** ABOUT DRAKE FLEETS, AND THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT TO THIS THREAD?

I have already conceded that they are slightly OP and need balanced. This thread is about the repercussions of making multiple balances simultaneously that effect both player ships (including and beyond the drake) and NPC's. If you don't have any input relative the end result feel free to bump this thread some more. If you manage to come up with an argument that's not based on fallacy that will be great and I might even respond.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#98 - 2012-09-25 01:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
I have already conceded that they are slightly OP and need balanced. This thread is about the repercussions of making multiple balances simultaneously that effect both player ships (including and beyond the drake) and NPC's. If you don't have any input relative the end result feel free to bump this thread some more. If you manage to come up with an argument that's not based on fallacy that will be great and I might even respond.


1. The NPC AI change will not affect a significant number of mission runners, since Drones aren't a significant source of DPS for any high end missionboat.
2. It takes 2 weeks to train HAM IIs. The TE/TC changes will likely allow HAM Drakes and Tengus to have similar PvE capabilities as they do now.
3. What evidence do you have to suggest that changes to the mission NPC AI will increase the number of people working in WHs (as you claimed in your OP)?

I've posted all three of these points before, but you seem to have difficulty reading.


Oh, and Fleets are the reason Drakes and HMLs are getting nerfed. The Drake is (as you pointed out) a ****** soloist to begin with.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-09-25 01:37:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
1. The NPC AI change will not affect a significant number of mission runners, since Drones aren't a significant source of DPS for any high end missionboat.

At least let me please have the delusion that the rattlesnake is deserving of it's place in my heart as a high end missioner.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#100 - 2012-09-25 01:39:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
I have already conceded that they are slightly OP and need balanced. This thread is about the repercussions of making multiple balances simultaneously that effect both player ships (including and beyond the drake) and NPC's. If you don't have any input relative the end result feel free to bump this thread some more. If you manage to come up with an argument that's not based on fallacy that will be great and I might even respond.


1. The NPC AI change will not affect a significant number of mission runners, since Drones aren't a significant source of DPS for any high end missionboat.
2. It takes 2 weeks to train HAM IIs. The TE/TC changes will likely allow HAM Drakes and Tengus to have similar PvE capabilities as they do now.
3. What evidence do you have to suggest that changes to the mission NPC AI will increase the number of people working in WHs (as you claimed in your OP)?

I've posted all three of these points before, but you seem to have difficulty reading.


Oh, and Fleets are the reason Drakes and HMLs are getting nerfed. The Drake is (as you pointed out) a ****** soloist to begin with.


1. Because whenever changes to AI are made both in this game and other MMO's it causes a significant dropoff in playerbase. It has already happened in Eve, Guild wars, Diablo, and many others.
2. Hams will not be a comparable option for sleeper sites, incursions, or missions post buff because they still wont have the range.
3. The missile using mission runners ****won't**** go to wormholes as alternative income due to the nerfs to missile.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it