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Upcoming "balancing" overall repercussions.

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Pipa Porto
#41 - 2012-09-24 03:16:28 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
LOL@PVE

Nobody cares what the balance of ships is with regards to PvE. There's nothing remotely important about the relative balance between ships used for PvE. When we say the Drake is overpowered, we're talking about PvP.
Oh, and there's that spare mid with the web. Feel free to patch the thermal hole. If you need CPU, drop the Nano for a Co-Proc.

So, show me another BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle.


So you are saying that that drake cant be beat by another tier 2 BC in PvP? ROFL if you are.


I didn't say that.

Are you going to show me another BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?

That said, any other LR t2 BC, yes. Remember, HMs are Long Range weapons in the class of Arty, Railguns, and Beams. A competently flown Drake will beat any other LR t2 BC. It'll beat a RailRox, it'll beat an ArtyCane, it'll beat a BeamHarbi (Harbieam?).


Any of the 3 other tier 2 battlecruisers can be made to point, tank 400 dps, and have over 130 DPS. That would be the requirements to beat that fit 100% of the time in a 1v1 assuming no operator error on either side.


Missed where we were talking about special snowflake fits vs fleet fits in contrived setups.

Gonna show me that other BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#42 - 2012-09-24 03:22:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Then ***** at me in the relevant thread. This one is about the repercussions of the combined upcoming balances.

You can explain the causality of it here if you want, it will make a nice little backstory. Saying that I don't understand the causality of it without explaining it is shipoasting at its finest.


Genrally speaking, before you post up an argument you look up the things you are arguing about otherwise you just end up bad posting.

As far as mission runners go after these changes. They will adapt, just as they have before and most likely dump the tengu for battleships or even go for a HAM tengu. The Golem and navy raven will most likely see more action thanks to the longer ranges and better damage applications of torps. Cruise missiles might even see a revival.


1. I am not arguing about why they are nerfing HML's, I looked it up, and there are many reasons. That already has its own thread and if I wanted to argue about it I would do so there, where it is appropriate.

2. I agree most will. In the meantime, the ones that do not adapt and quit, and the ones who do adapt but have to change their skillplan will be affecting the things that have been brought up in the OP.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#43 - 2012-09-24 03:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Care to read the trhead, or troll better? Its already been explained. Thanks for the bump tho.


I have read the thread. Its clear you have very little grasp over why the HML is getting a nerf.


Then ***** at me in the relevant thread. This one is about the repercussions of the combined upcoming balances.

You can explain the causality of it here if you want, it will make a nice little backstory. Saying that I don't understand the causality of it without explaining it is shipoasting at its finest.


And we're discussing why the Drake needed nerfing, as one of the people on the first page asked. If you're unhappy with that, bitch at them.

You seem to be under the impression that anything about the HML nerf is about PVE. That's laughably wrong.


Also, Missionbears will use HAMs and TCs/TEs to get similar performance out of their Drakes and Tengus. They might also start using Torp CNRs, and Golems might be worthwhile again. The missionbears aren't going to move to WH space.

WHers will start using HAMs with TCs/TEs as well if they don't swap to gunships.

But again, nobody cares which ships people use to press the button for their food pellet.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#44 - 2012-09-24 03:43:10 UTC
Quote:
Gonna show me that other BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?


No, because it is completely irrelevant. See strawman.

Quote:
And we're discussing why the Drake needed nerfing, as one of the people on the first page asked. If you're unhappy with that, ***** at them.

You seem to be under the impression that anything about the HML nerf is about PVE. That's laughably wrong.


Also, Missionbears will use HAMs and TCs/TEs to get similar performance out of their Drakes and Tengus. They might also start using Torp CNRs, and Golems might be worthwhile again. The missionbears aren't going to move to WH space.

WHers will start using HAMs with TCs/TEs as well if they don't swap to gunships.

But again, nobody cares which ships people use to press the button for their food pellet.


And I'm discussing the repercussions of HML's being nerfed simultaneously with mission A.I. being buffed. Join the appropriate thread.

Your assumption is wrong in the first place, so laugh all you want.

People can't just start using things they aren't trained for, which is why it will affect the economy.







internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Pipa Porto
#45 - 2012-09-24 04:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
Gonna show me that other BC that can do 70k EHP, 400DPS @70km, run a prop mod, and run tackle?


No, because it is completely irrelevant. See strawman.


So performance is irrelevant to ship balance? Ok. You're the one who claimed that the performance of a fleet fit in 1v1s and against sleepers were indicators of anything with regards to balancing the Drake and HMLs.

Again, how are T2 items expensive?
Quote:
How do you mean? To get all of that out of a drake you need a lot of expensive mods. It can get 70k EHP easy but wont have the 2 mid slots you speak of. You could do it but it would be very expensive.


And how do you make a Myrmidon that can Tank as well as a Drake, do damage as well as a Drake, and Project that damage as well as a Drake?

Quote:
Quote:
And we're discussing why the Drake needed nerfing, as one of the people on the first page asked. If you're unhappy with that, ***** at them.

You seem to be under the impression that anything about the HML nerf is about PVE. That's laughably wrong.


Also, Missionbears will use HAMs and TCs/TEs to get similar performance out of their Drakes and Tengus. They might also start using Torp CNRs, and Golems might be worthwhile again. The missionbears aren't going to move to WH space.

WHers will start using HAMs with TCs/TEs as well if they don't swap to gunships.

But again, nobody cares which ships people use to press the button for their food pellet.


And I'm discussing the repercussions of HML's being nerfed simultaneously with mission A.I. being buffed. Join the appropriate thread.

Your assumption is wrong in the first place, so laugh all you want.

People can't just start using things they aren't trained for, which is why it will affect the economy.


You know, I can pretend to understand not reading what you reply to, but not reading what you quote? I'll bold it.

As for affecting the economy in the way you suggest it will, there are ~2 months between now and the Winter expansion. Training T2 HAMs takes ~2 weeks.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#46 - 2012-09-24 05:42:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Then ***** at me in the relevant thread. This one is about the repercussions of the combined upcoming balances.

You can explain the causality of it here if you want, it will make a nice little backstory. Saying that I don't understand the causality of it without explaining it is shipoasting at its finest.


Genrally speaking, before you post up an argument you look up the things you are arguing about otherwise you just end up bad posting.

As far as mission runners go after these changes. They will adapt, just as they have before and most likely dump the tengu for battleships or even go for a HAM tengu. The Golem and navy raven will most likely see more action thanks to the longer ranges and better damage applications of torps. Cruise missiles might even see a revival.

Gogogogogo......lem

Forgot how sweet they are (were) sometimes.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-09-24 05:50:28 UTC
No one mentioned that the guys doing real T3 production live in C5s and C6s and use caps?

So, yeah caldari pilots have to train something past HML drake.
bufnitza calatoare
#48 - 2012-09-24 06:00:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
No one mentioned that the guys doing real T3 production live in C5s and C6s and use caps?

So, yeah caldari pilots have to train something past HML drake.



in c6's try tengus and caps in unison,
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#49 - 2012-09-24 06:42:35 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
There are many threads about the following 2 items, but not how they will interact with each other.

1. Nerf to heavy missiles.
2. Revamping of mission A.I.

Who runs wormholes? Drakes, Tengu's, and Nighthwaks are extremely popular In Wspace.

What gets made with Wspace loot? T3's.

Where do "hisec carebears" go when Hisec takes a hit? Wormholes.

The Incursion VG nerf was really nice to me as a WH dweller. A lot of people left Hisec and started running wornholes again. This left us with a lot of PvP targets in Wspace compared to last year.

But what are they going to do this time? There are a lot of mission runners that are not going to be able to deal with the A.I. buff. Combine that with 2 of the most popular mission running ships (Tengu and Drake) getting nerfed, and its easy to see that the mission running profession is going to take a hard hit. But moving into Wspace will be much less viable.

This in itself is not crippling to the game, however, a nerf to the preferred ships of many Wspace dwellers will be highly detrimental IMHO. There will be less demand for Nano ribbons as they are used in the construction of T3 ships, as there will be less Tengus being produced.

Less money in the economy, less T3's being produced, less PvP targets, less plex being bought.

I don't think that Eve is dying, or going to die from this, but my bet it is going to take a big hit. There were almost 50k people on today. I bet this next expansion is going to take us back down to the low 40's again.

I personally will still be able to do everything I do with no problem, but I can see Wspace as a ghost town again, much less people in Hisec, and inflation (especially on PLEX). I wonder if CCP considered this?



Heavy missiles are not the only weapon that can be used in L4s. If the proposed changes go ahead the CNR will once again become the unquestioned king of missile PvE, with a big increase in effectiveness. Heavy missiles are looking at a nerf, but every other missile type is looking at a big ole buff.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#50 - 2012-09-24 06:56:46 UTC
Where can I read about the proposed NPC AI changes? I've had a look in the Suggestions forum but the only entry I can see there relates to FW not normal mission running.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#51 - 2012-09-24 06:57:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If the proposed changes go ahead the CNR will once again become the unquestioned king of missile PvE, with a big increase in effectiveness. Heavy missiles are looking at a nerf, but every other missile type is looking at a big ole buff.



The CNR isn't getting a buff is it? And where have CCP stated that CMs are getting a buff?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-09-24 07:15:52 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If the proposed changes go ahead the CNR will once again become the unquestioned king of missile PvE, with a big increase in effectiveness. Heavy missiles are looking at a nerf, but every other missile type is looking at a big ole buff.



The CNR isn't getting a buff is it? And where have CCP stated that CMs are getting a buff?


It's a general buff because all T2 missiles are reworked and after the change you will have modules to buff your practical damage application with missiles.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#53 - 2012-09-24 07:23:12 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If the proposed changes go ahead the CNR will once again become the unquestioned king of missile PvE, with a big increase in effectiveness. Heavy missiles are looking at a nerf, but every other missile type is looking at a big ole buff.



The CNR isn't getting a buff is it? And where have CCP stated that CMs are getting a buff?


It's a general buff because all T2 missiles are reworked and after the change you will have modules to buff your practical damage application with missiles.


Exactly. The Golem will look pretty sweet too.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2012-09-24 07:27:28 UTC
Oh and if the proposed Typhoon change to make it a TP bonused missile boat goes through, dat torphoon!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-09-24 07:40:03 UTC
Smarter AI + less range for PVEers = more assploded ships = more ships bought = healthier economy!

Yay industry! :D
Caroline Cosmos
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-09-24 07:50:50 UTC
Cipher, you've been playing Eve long enough to know that nerfs/buffs tend to pull players away from their initial skill training. This has been going on a long damn time. Hell, my main had cruise missile specialization to 5 about a month before SBs went to torps... Did I quit? Absolutely not. Was I kinda pissed? Yeah.

I don't know why you are so concerned about players leaving. Is this some kind of scare tactic directed at CCP? What's your motivation? Drakes in any way you look at em are way more powerful and overused than any other ship in its class. Even using the Myrm as an example as an "equal" ship is flawed because the damn thing is slower than a snail in molasses.

Why are you bothered?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#57 - 2012-09-24 08:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
bufnitza calatoare wrote:
Onictus wrote:
No one mentioned that the guys doing real T3 production live in C5s and C6s and use caps?

So, yeah caldari pilots have to train something past HML drake.



in c6's try tengus and caps in unison,


The same Tengus that are getting nerfed, yes.


Caroline Cosmos wrote:
Cipher, you've been playing Eve long enough to know that nerfs/buffs tend to pull players away from their initial skill training. This has been going on a long damn time. Hell, my main had cruise missile specialization to 5 about a month before SBs went to torps... Did I quit? Absolutely not. Was I kinda pissed? Yeah.

I don't know why you are so concerned about players leaving. Is this some kind of scare tactic directed at CCP? What's your motivation? Drakes in any way you look at em are way more powerful and overused than any other ship in its class. Even using the Myrm as an example as an "equal" ship is flawed because the damn thing is slower than a snail in molasses.

Why are you bothered?


Less Wspace PvP and inflation. That's my concern.

Quote:
So performance is irrelevant to ship balance?


Your drake build is irrelevant to this thread because it is easily countered in PvP and sucks in PvE. Just because A funny car has 40 magnitudes of power more than a rally car doesn't mean it can beat it in a rally race. There's no place in this thread to debate the tier 2 battlecruisers. Go post in those threads. A lot more than the drake is being changed and this is about the likely results of those changes.

If you feel that I am wrong and that the changes will bring more or an equal amount of players to tranquility, feel free to explain why.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Caroline Cosmos
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-09-24 08:17:14 UTC
I think it's a good thing to get more players to think outside the box personally. I know away too many that just train missiles, and that's all they do. There are far too many Tengu/Drake "noobs" (I know they aren't all that way) in the game. This will bring variety to the WH.

He'll, maybe you'll see more nighthawks, Gilas, rattlesnakes etc. We all know one of the most important mottos of eve: adapt or die.

I wouldn't worry sir. It will all,work itself out.
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-09-24 08:41:03 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
I will be sure to let the wormhole community know that their entire operation is now in a bind because of the upcoming missile changes. Because that's all they use, of course.



you left out pos changes.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Pipa Porto
#60 - 2012-09-24 08:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Cipher Jones wrote:
The same Tengus that are getting nerfed, yes.


Caroline Cosmos wrote:
Cipher, you've been playing Eve long enough to know that nerfs/buffs tend to pull players away from their initial skill training. This has been going on a long damn time. Hell, my main had cruise missile specialization to 5 about a month before SBs went to torps... Did I quit? Absolutely not. Was I kinda pissed? Yeah.

I don't know why you are so concerned about players leaving. Is this some kind of scare tactic directed at CCP? What's your motivation? Drakes in any way you look at em are way more powerful and overused than any other ship in its class. Even using the Myrm as an example as an "equal" ship is flawed because the damn thing is slower than a snail in molasses.

Why are you bothered?


Less Wspace PvP and inflation. That's my concern.

Quote:
So performance is irrelevant to ship balance?


Your drake build is irrelevant to this thread because it is easily countered in PvP and sucks in PvE. Just because A funny car has 40 magnitudes of power more than a rally car doesn't mean it can beat it in a rally race. There's no place in this thread to debate the tier 2 battlecruisers. Go post in those threads. A lot more than the drake is being changed and this is about the likely results of those changes.

If you feel that I am wrong and that the changes will bring more or an equal amount of players to tranquility, feel free to explain why.


How are the missile and ship hull changes going to affect inflation in any way? Inflation/Deflation represents the relative balance between Total Net ISK Faucets and Total Net Material Faucets, by the way. WH players will likely switch to HAMs or Turret ships (Inflation neutral as their grinding will likely be unaffected, since grinding in C5s and C6s is dominated by Caps). Missionbears will either switch to HAMs or a Battleship option, or switch to Turret ships (most serious missioners I know made that switch long ago, since Machs and NMs simply complete most missions faster).


Are you saying that the Drake is not Overpowered? Just because it can be countered doesn't mean it's not OP. It is the only BC able to project Short Range DPS out to long ranges. At the same time, it has an enormous tank and utility/tackle mids.
Are you saying that HMLs aren't OP? They provide Short Range Damage when they're Long Range weapons. Ever see a HML ship do less damage than a comprable Arty/Rail/Pulse ship at range?

Anyway, I was just addressing a concern that someone on the first page brought up. If you're worried about the "purity" of your thread, bitch at them.

As for people quitting, I'm not the best person to address the possibility of people quitting because their OP ships are brought back to earth and can't adapt. I do know someone who has something to say on the subject though:
Kristoffer Touborg/CCP Soundwave wrote:
It isn’t really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and there’s customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally don’t like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isn’t for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And that’s not really that bad.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/eve-devs-our-game-is-the-mmo-equivalent-of-running-inferno-solo-with-a-naked-barbarian/

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto