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CONCORD, lowsec, and the hunted
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Selinate
#61 - 2012-09-24 01:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
Pipa Porto wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Aggression costs in every sector.
…except for nullsec in lowsec. That leaves highsec as the part of space where aggression comes at a cost. Whether you choose to pay for it in ISK (wardecs) or items (suicide gank) is up to you, but it's only in highsec that these costs exist.


Aggression still costs in low sec; it costs in the form of sec status (which, after a while, prevents that character from accessing the major hubs on that character), and it can also cost you your ship if you're not careful on the gates/stations, since the increased DPS from the gate guns plus the ship that they're PvPing with.

It still costs something, just in a smaller way.


Potential for loss in PvP isn't the same cost we're talking about. Sec status isn't a particularly important cost (and it's trivial to escape by simply going -10).

The mechanics (broad strokes):
HS: Aggression costs ISK every time that it's not consensual.
LS: Aggression is free, but the defender might get some help.
Null: Aggression is free.


None the less, the cost in sec status is still there. I guess it has more of an effect when you only play with one character and are forced to deal with these effects on only that one character (like I do, which I think everyone should have to, but this is a different argument and story all-together), but it's still important to note that character's loss of free access to high security space and also the hubs.
Pipa Porto
#62 - 2012-09-24 01:46:16 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Aggression costs in every sector.
…except for nullsec in lowsec. That leaves highsec as the part of space where aggression comes at a cost. Whether you choose to pay for it in ISK (wardecs) or items (suicide gank) is up to you, but it's only in highsec that these costs exist.


Aggression still costs in low sec; it costs in the form of sec status (which, after a while, prevents that character from accessing the major hubs on that character), and it can also cost you your ship if you're not careful on the gates/stations, since the increased DPS from the gate guns plus the ship that they're PvPing with.

It still costs something, just in a smaller way.


Potential for loss in PvP isn't the same cost we're talking about. Sec status isn't a particularly important cost (and it's trivial to escape by simply going -10).

The mechanics (broad strokes):
HS: Aggression costs ISK every time that it's not consensual.
LS: Aggression is free, but the defender might get some help.
Null: Aggression is free.


None the less, the cost in sec status is still there. I guess it has more of an effect when you only play with one character and are forced to deal with these effects on only that one character (like I do, which I think everyone should have to, but this is a different argument and story all-together), but it's still important to note that character's loss of free access to high security space and also the hubs.


A Bestower alt takes ~4hrs to train, I think. That's the aggregate cost of all the aggression you start in LS as far as shopping is concerned. Choosing to pay a higher cost isn't something you need to balance around.

Again, in HS, Aggression costs ISK every single time it's not consensual. In LS, any costs are minimal and easily escaped.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Selinate
#63 - 2012-09-24 01:54:59 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


A Bestower alt takes ~4hrs to train, I think. That's the aggregate cost of all the aggression you start in LS as far as shopping is concerned. Choosing to pay a higher cost isn't something you need to balance around.

Again, in HS, Aggression costs ISK every single time it's not consensual. In LS, any costs are minimal and easily escaped.


Again, it depends heavily on how you play the game. It also depends on how you decide to make your isk. Loss of access to high sec can be a big deal. Low sec status can also have losses that have other less measurable losses such as not being able to join the corp you want.

It just depends. It can be a great loss.
Pipa Porto
#64 - 2012-09-24 01:58:07 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


A Bestower alt takes ~4hrs to train, I think. That's the aggregate cost of all the aggression you start in LS as far as shopping is concerned. Choosing to pay a higher cost isn't something you need to balance around.

Again, in HS, Aggression costs ISK every single time it's not consensual. In LS, any costs are minimal and easily escaped.


Again, it depends heavily on how you play the game. It also depends on how you decide to make your isk. Loss of access to high sec can be a big deal. Low sec status can also have losses that have other less measurable losses such as not being able to join the corp you want.

It just depends. It can be a great loss.


We're not talking about optional costs you choose to incur (loss of access is optional, as is not making your ISK in LS) and can choose to escape.

We're talking about costs you must incur in order to engage in aggressive actions (your ship or a wardec fee).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-09-24 01:59:09 UTC
Part 2 is up.

I just want to say, good points all around.

Selinate and Pipa, excellent analysis. Please keep it coming.
Tippia, I think your Meta 4 Hyperbole Gun is a little OP, but I appreciate the feedback ("macaroni cheese" was great).

Sorry for the lack of specific responses (for now).

Throwing this on the table: Suppose committing a crime in high sec triggered a system-wide broadcast (a small message like the one when someone enters enemy faction space).

And more clarity: The spectrum of possibility isn't between insta-pop and less risk. It's between CONCORD and player-run police. Contrary to what some might imply, I want this for the "carebears" as much as the criminals. More sense of ownership.

Occasionally plays sober
Pipa Porto
#66 - 2012-09-24 02:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jett0 wrote:
Throwing this on the table: Suppose committing a crime in high sec triggered a system-wide broadcast (a small message like the one when someone enters enemy faction space).


It already does. It's called the GCC. Your name even goes red in local.

Quote:
And more clarity: The spectrum of possibility isn't between insta-pop and less risk. It's between CONCORD and player-run police. Contrary to what some might imply, I want this for the "carebears" as much as the criminals. More sense of ownership.


Yes, because cost free aggression is good for the carebears. Roll

The result of your suggestion is free Ganking.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2012-09-24 02:48:22 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
And more clarity: The spectrum of possibility isn't between insta-pop and less risk. It's between CONCORD and player-run police. Contrary to what some might imply, I want this for the "carebears" as much as the criminals. More sense of ownership.
Actually, no, there isn't any spectrum between the two. Either aggression comes at an enforced cost or it doesn't. If it maybe costs a bit sometimes, then it doesn't fall into any kind of spectrum — the cost is simply no longer enforced, period (and player ingenuity will ensure that “maybe” turns into “most likely not” and “sometimes” turns into “as close to never as to make no difference”).

If you want to do something for the carebears, give them a means to transfer their kill rights. They get revenge; people get to hunt criminals; crims get hunted… everyone wins. And you don't even have to remove highsec to do it. You will still have to pay the cost for aggression, though, because that's just how highsec works and there is no way of removing that without removing highsec (which, no matter how you try to sugar-coat it, is not pro-carebear).

…now all you have to do is come up with a mechanism to ensure that it's not open to the same exploits as the current bounty system.
Selinate
#68 - 2012-09-24 15:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
Pipa Porto wrote:


We're talking about costs you must incur in order to engage in aggressive actions (your ship or a wardec fee).


And loss of sec status is a cost you must incur, which has many opportunity costs as you lose access to high sec.

Not to mention that only using a bestower limits your access to larger ships like battleships... or end up paying the cost of a battleship in low sec which is almost always much higher than it is at one of the hubs.

It's arguable that a forced alteration in your gameplay style is also a cost in itself. It's simple/easy to revert but hey, so is making back isk...
Pipa Porto
#69 - 2012-09-24 21:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Selinate wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


We're talking about costs you must incur in order to engage in aggressive actions (your ship or a wardec fee).


And loss of sec status is a cost you must incur, which has many opportunity costs as you lose access to high sec.

Not to mention that only using a bestower limits your access to larger ships like battleships... or end up paying the cost of a battleship in low sec which is almost always much higher than it is at one of the hubs.

It's arguable that a forced alteration in your gameplay style is also a cost in itself. It's simple/easy to revert but hey, so is making back isk...


So why do I have friends stuck at -10? So, no, you do not have to incur the "cost" of Sec status loss to engage in LS aggression.

Again, HS has a mechanically enforced cost to aggression that cannot be escaped.

LS has a "cost" that stops being incurred in any way after a while (and stops being meaningful well before that -5 ~= -10), can be escaped through alts or friends, and doesn't hit you in the pocketbook.

So much the same principle. Roll

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Selinate
#70 - 2012-09-24 21:58:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


So why do I have friends stuck at -10? So, no, you do not have to incur the "cost" of Sec status loss to engage in LS aggression.

Again, HS has a mechanically enforced cost to aggression that cannot be escaped.

LS has a "cost" that stops being incurred in any way after a while (and stops being meaningful well before that -5 ~= -10), can be escaped through alts or friends, and doesn't hit you in the pocketbook.

So much the same principle. Roll


Because they decided to play the game that way. And loss of sec status is a mechanically enforced cost to aggression that cannot be escaped also. It is a game mechanic that forces a cost of sec status on the player when they attack any other player in low or high sec. It may lose any meaning from -5 to -10, but it becomes harder to fix at that point so it's still a loss.

As I've said before, you can't just have an alt in a T1 indy provide support for all the things one might want/need in Eve. You'll need an orca or freighter for a lot of it. That's a decent sized and direct hit to the pocket book. Also, if you have an alt that can use an orca, the player will often want to have a separate account for it so that they can have that alt online at the same time. This is also a cost.

Trusting your friends to ship your stuff to you is a risk on it's own, and that can cost you a lot more than anything mentioned so far. But again, you have to wait for your friend to get online so you can get your stuff instead of getting it yourself. This creates opportunity costs.
Herr Hammer Draken
#71 - 2012-09-25 03:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
What if instead of placing a bounty on another player you could buy a GCC timer. Any length of time depending on amount paid and anybody in high sec could fire on you for free while the timer was in effect. Just an idea. Could be used with some of the above ideas.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#72 - 2012-09-25 03:52:35 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
What if instead of placing a bounty on another player you could buy a GCC timer. Any length of time depending on amount paid and anybody in high sec could fire on you for free while the timer was in effect. Just an idea. Could be used with some of the above ideas.


1. Get in a Noobship
2. Shoot CONCORD in the Noobship
3. Repeat.
4. ??????
5. Congrats, everybody can shoot you.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Hammer Draken
#73 - 2012-09-25 04:43:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
What if instead of placing a bounty on another player you could buy a GCC timer. Any length of time depending on amount paid and anybody in high sec could fire on you for free while the timer was in effect. Just an idea. Could be used with some of the above ideas.


1. Get in a Noobship
2. Shoot CONCORD in the Noobship
3. Repeat.
4. ??????
5. Congrats, everybody can shoot you.


Huh, you have it backwards. At the time of the gank, the player that was ganked gets a pop up window. They can buy a GCC timer on the ganker for XXX variable length of time and they buy it. Then that ganker is red to everyone in high sec til the timer runs out.
Add that in to the possibility of escape from concord. CCP can set a max timer maybe 1 month as that is what you get for kill rights. But this timer does not go away if the guy that has it gets killed. This timer runs til it times out. That way he can not just fly into high sec in a shuttle and get killed and remove the timer.
Works far better than the current bounty system does I think.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#74 - 2012-09-25 06:20:43 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
What if instead of placing a bounty on another player you could buy a GCC timer. Any length of time depending on amount paid and anybody in high sec could fire on you for free while the timer was in effect. Just an idea. Could be used with some of the above ideas.


1. Get in a Noobship
2. Shoot CONCORD in the Noobship
3. Repeat.
4. ??????
5. Congrats, everybody can shoot you.


Huh, you have it backwards. At the time of the gank, the player that was ganked gets a pop up window. They can buy a GCC timer on the ganker for XXX variable length of time and they buy it. Then that ganker is red to everyone in high sec til the timer runs out.
Add that in to the possibility of escape from concord. CCP can set a max timer maybe 1 month as that is what you get for kill rights. But this timer does not go away if the guy that has it gets killed. This timer runs til it times out. That way he can not just fly into high sec in a shuttle and get killed and remove the timer.
Works far better than the current bounty system does I think.


So, an even worse version of the terrible Crimewatch proposals. How about no.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2012-09-25 06:28:39 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
What if instead of placing a bounty on another player you could buy a GCC timer. Any length of time depending on amount paid and anybody in high sec could fire on you for free while the timer was in effect. Just an idea. Could be used with some of the above ideas.


1. Get in a Noobship
2. Shoot CONCORD in the Noobship
3. Repeat.
4. ??????
5. Congrats, everybody can shoot you.


Huh, you have it backwards. At the time of the gank, the player that was ganked gets a pop up window. They can buy a ...


I read "gets to pop a widow"...
another cafe neccessary
good morning

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#76 - 2012-09-26 06:28:16 UTC
I truly fail to see how effectively turning high sec into low sec via evadable CONCORD makes the game better for anyone beyond the criminal types who want to commit the crimes but, not deal with the consequences. If you want to fire on people in high sec without involving CONCORD then pay the war dec fee or, join factional warfare.

What the OP and his risk averse friends are asking for already exists in systems with a sec status below 0.5. You guys should try going there sometime. You can shoot anyone and everyone you want for the low cost of a 15 minute GCC flag (and *yawn* loss of sec status...). Seriously, try it. It's fun!

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-09-26 08:23:22 UTC
I agree that it would be a lit more interesting if you could escape concord but then what would be the punishment for your crimes? Hit: sec status hits arn't the answer.

This could only work if there was a long term punishment e.g. SP hit or prison.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Pipa Porto
#78 - 2012-09-26 08:26:22 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I agree that it would be a lit more interesting if you could escape concord but then what would be the punishment for your crimes? Hit: sec status hits arn't the answer.

This could only work if there was a long term punishment e.g. SP hit or prison.


What's with people and the godawful SP Loss and Prison proposals?

Hint: Neither of them produce anything like good gameplay for anyone.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-09-26 12:26:52 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I agree that it would be a lit more interesting if you could escape concord but then what would be the punishment for your crimes? Hit: sec status hits arn't the answer.

This could only work if there was a long term punishment e.g. SP hit or prison.


What's with people and the godawful SP Loss and Prison proposals?

Hint: Neither of them produce anything like good gameplay for anyone.


Because it's the only logical punishment and it actually soounds more interesting that magical laser beams coming from nowhere and destroying your ship IMO.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Pipa Porto
#80 - 2012-09-26 12:46:40 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I agree that it would be a lit more interesting if you could escape concord but then what would be the punishment for your crimes? Hit: sec status hits arn't the answer.

This could only work if there was a long term punishment e.g. SP hit or prison.


What's with people and the godawful SP Loss and Prison proposals?

Hint: Neither of them produce anything like good gameplay for anyone.


Because it's the only logical punishment and it actually soounds more interesting that magical laser beams coming from nowhere and destroying your ship IMO.


Why isn't "your ship gets blown up" a logical punishment for blowing up someone else's ship?

Besides that, who care's about logic? We fly spaceships in space which has the consistency of Soup. This is a Game, so Logic takes a back seat to Good Gameplay. How do either of your proposals represent Good Gameplay?

One hits people with a metagame punishment for legitimate in game activites. The other stops people from playing the game. Both significantly reward the use of 51d Hero alts.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto