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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Author
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#361 - 2012-09-20 22:48:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So again I ask, are you guys going to change the penalties for armor rigs/plates to try and balance out the game? Or are we just going to have the same dynamic we have now with slightly different hulls?

Last time they tried to do it, they get such a shitload of tears and rage that they just retreat in fear.

Hopefully, more people are supporting the HML nerf, but that is for another thread.


Its a buff i tell you. Just wait till it hits the test server. (to clarify, HMLs get a tiny nerf. all other missiles are getting a buff.)
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#362 - 2012-09-20 23:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Quote:
Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(-175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)


Bold the important part.

Not like if Thorax was known for it's ability to fit 1600 plates making it a nice suicide ship or awesome Rails fittings/dps on it. Tracking bonus on this hull it's probably the worst bonus you guys could think about, fix the guns first, eventually give it a rof bonus.
This means Thorax is meant for rails, and fit short range guns on it means a wasted bonus. Well nothing says we have to fit blasters on it but then I look at Vexor and think about drones and smartbombs...

Ruppy all the way :sad panda:

brb

Songbird
#363 - 2012-09-21 00:06:21 UTC
What's the deal with the navy versions of these (naturally there's no navy thorax but ya know what I mean)
Glary Crazy
Empyrean Warriors
#364 - 2012-09-21 09:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Glary Crazy
Serious question to CCP Fozzie;

Even though the Omen has a ROF bonus/Cap use bonus and i'm guessing the Maller will have a Damage bonus/Resist bonus, your aware the Omen will probally be ignored as while sure the cap bonus is ok, you have a better tank and similiar DPS on the Maller, it really doesn't fit for an attack ship. Why not consider an optimal range bonus so people actually consider using it?

Serious question, not a splergy shitpost like most of the thread.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#365 - 2012-09-21 10:12:27 UTC
Quote:
Serious question to CCP Fozzie;

Even though the Omen has a ROF bonus/Cap use bonus and i'm guessing the Maller will have a Damage bonus/Resist bonus, your aware the Omen will probally be ignored as while sure the cap bonus is ok, you have a better tank and similiar DPS on the Maller, it really doesn't fit for an attack ship. Why not consider an optimal range bonus so people actually consider using it?

Serious question, not a splergy shitpost like most of the thread.


Well without the cap bonus it will be complete useless in fleet fights. Out of cap within 1 or 2 mins. What to do in 8 or 10 mins fleet fights then?
I had enough problems to fire long enough with a coercer in fleet.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2012-09-21 12:18:35 UTC
When will CCP realize that speed is worth more then signature radius, just cut the armor rig penalty in half already.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#367 - 2012-09-21 12:20:31 UTC
Quote:
When will CCP realize that speed is worth more then signature radius, just cut the armor rig penalty in half already.


Agree completely with that.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#368 - 2012-09-21 12:58:27 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
When will CCP realize that speed is worth more then signature radius, just cut the armor rig penalty in half already.


In a 800mm RT plated Omen with 3 trimarks, this would only make a small difference. From 1239 m/s to about 1320 m/s. Unplated and unrigged it goes 1500 m/s.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2012-09-21 13:03:22 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
When will CCP realize that speed is worth more then signature radius, just cut the armor rig penalty in half already.


In a 800mm RT plated Omen with 3 trimarks, this would only make a small difference. From 1239 m/s to about 1320 m/s. Unplated and unrigged it goes 1500 m/s.


Thats no small difference.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#370 - 2012-09-21 13:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
There should be more thought going into the choice of rigs, rather than just HP rigs on everything. Forcing a choice between EHP and mobility is good design, so speed penalties on trimarks should not only be retained but also extended to Extender and Purger rigs. Altering to an agility penalty would probably also work though.

Active-tanking rigs should get no penalty; resist rigs should get either no penalty or a light one, sig radius would probably work.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#371 - 2012-09-21 13:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Quote:
There should be more thought going into the choice of rigs, rather than just HP rigs on everything. Forcing a choice between EHP and mobility is good design, so speed penalties on trimarks should not only be retained but also extended to Extender and Purger rigs. Altering to an agility penalty would probably also work though.

Active-tanking rigs should get no penalty; resist rigs should get either no penalty or a light one, sig radius would probably work.


Active tanking rigs no penalty????
Actually minmatar have the best tech1 bc (lets not talk about tech2) with asb cyclone (oh yeah I remeber that a fleet of approx 14 cruisers and destroyers couldnt kill it at that gate) and oh oh.... ever tried to kill an asb maelstrom or asb vargur? Well I remember that 4 cynabals 2 vagabonds other cruisers and frigates needed about 5 minutes for ONE asb Maelstrom.
Shield tanking is actually completely superior to armor tanking.
We would need first a fix here.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#372 - 2012-09-21 13:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
You are talking about known problems with ASBs, not problems with rig penalties.

ASBs aren't really active tanking mods anyway, they're effectively buffer mods.

ASBs were a fundamentally bad idea and Eve would be better off removing them entirely and looking at other ways to make true active tanks stand up better in a neut-heavy environment. Things like better synchronisation of cap booster and repper cycles, or reducing Nos fitting requirements and increasing their drain amount.

The neut protection offered by a cap battery was a good idea in itself, but it was wasted by making it too weak against neuts and linking it to cap batteries, which are far too hard to fit, both in terms of spare medslots and and PG & CPU. It would work better on a new highslot module, relatively easy to fit, that offered a ~40%, subject to normal stacking penalties, reduction in cap amount drained from your ship by neuts or nos. A ship fitting these would be resistant but not immune to neuting, at the cost of its own offensive or RR capabilities. Carriers with these might be a problem, but if they have them then they're not RRing. In-combat refitting might have to go though. Hmmmm.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#373 - 2012-09-21 14:54:08 UTC
I very much approve of this, I have long thought the Caracal needed just that kind of buff.

I would say do the same thing to the Drake, I realize this is not the proper thread for saying this, and nerf its passive tanking abilities a bit. The drake can effectively permanent passive tank two Megathrons, that's what makes it OP not any of the missile crap people are rambling about.

Now back on topic, each race should have a more specialized outlook on this. Minmatar should be speed/kiting, so maybe give that a microwarp/afterburner buff. Amarr has always been armor tanking, so give it maybe a resist bonus and a rep bonus to make up for the Omen's almost always pathetic tank level. Thorax looks about perfect, in my opinion. And Caracal, like someone else said earlier, should have an explosion velocity buff and the missile speed buff should be lowered to around 7% ish.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#374 - 2012-09-21 15:18:43 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
ASBs were a fundamentally bad idea and Eve would be better off removing them entirely and looking at other ways to make true active tanks stand up better in a neut-heavy environment. Things like better synchronisation of cap booster and repper cycles, or reducing Nos fitting requirements and increasing their drain amount.



How about active tanking that isn't 100% reliant on cap boosters? Having to dock up all the time is bad.
Nos should be way better though yeah. It's supposed to be a good defense against neuts, but it only actually drains half the cap/sec. The short duration is helpful, but typically means you can have a very small amount of cap rather than being completely capped out.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#375 - 2012-09-21 16:08:34 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Well, I've been thinking about the Omen in the way that I fly the Executioner nowadays. I wonder if it's possible with the new reduction in Beam PG I'll be able to fly a full rack of Heavy Beam II's and nano around at long range? Heavy beams reach out to 54 KM unbonused.

I see attack cruiser skirmishing (or at least trying to), the the ewar ones doing their thing and the combat cruisers brawling. So what if these don't have the greatest tanks? They're not supposed to. T1 Logi can reach most engagement ranges well.

I think we need to not look at ships in a 1v1 situation and see them working together.


This concept works with the Phantasm, but the Phantasm gets a tracking bonus. I'm not sure how well it'll work with the Omen, but it's about the only way I'll be flying one. The Armor fits are hilariously bad and the pulse fits are just too close ranged for the minor advantage over ships like the Thorax and Stabber (if it even has an advantage at all).

I'll try to EFT this when I get some time... which is sadly going to be a while since it's crunch time and we're nearing release date on our next game. \o/

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Sgt Napalm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#376 - 2012-09-21 17:22:57 UTC
It would appear that the Thorax is being set up for modules which currently do not exist in the game. Interesting.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#377 - 2012-09-21 17:26:27 UTC
Sgt Napalm wrote:
It would appear that the Thorax is being set up for modules which currently do not exist in the game. Interesting.


Can you expand on this line of thinking? Are you referring to the Micro Jump Drive?
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2012-09-21 19:23:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire



Am I right to think that a 25% bonus to the rate of fire increase the capacitor needs of turrets by 25% making the 50% bonus to cap just a 25% bonus?? Wouldn't it be better to just have a damage bonus instead?
Glary Crazy
Empyrean Warriors
#379 - 2012-09-22 00:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Glary Crazy
Scrublords post in place of CCP, gg right there.

Anyway, back to serious question time to CCP, considering the hull literally has a moot bonus compared to other hulls, have you guys seriously considered the idea of simply lowering cap use by a marginal amount, nothing huge, still make them use cap but instead of a cap related bonus which your doing away with on the Thorax for example, offer something useful. By your own logic thats how it *should* be. Why not fix that while your designing the bonuses? Makes sense doesn't it, hell, doesn't even need to be optimal, tracking would do.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#380 - 2012-09-22 01:24:58 UTC
I am curious - how fast would each one go with a MWD? Just as a comparison, assume no armour tank.