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[Winter] ORE frigate

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Kesthely
Mestana
#61 - 2012-09-21 19:30:39 UTC
Stop looking at its implementations for a fully maxed out industry character!

This STARTING mining ship isn't ment for accomplished hulk pilots, maxed out gas harvesting pilots or any one that can fly a mining barge! Its ment as a starting ship for industry just like the T1 Frigate is ment to be a starting ship for combat pilots.

The ships it replaces were by FAR less effective. This frigate can even serve as a low skilled ore hauler. Starting characters can easily get enough yield out of this thing till they skill up and are able to buy the mining barges, and after that its still usefull to hold on to for your first adventures as a gas cloud miner.

Doddy
Excidium.
#62 - 2012-09-21 19:32:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.


Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.
Doddy
Excidium.
#63 - 2012-09-21 19:35:39 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Stop looking at its implementations for a fully maxed out industry character!

This STARTING mining ship isn't ment for accomplished hulk pilots, maxed out gas harvesting pilots or any one that can fly a mining barge! Its ment as a starting ship for industry just like the T1 Frigate is ment to be a starting ship for combat pilots.

The ships it replaces were by FAR less effective. This frigate can even serve as a low skilled ore hauler. Starting characters can easily get enough yield out of this thing till they skill up and are able to buy the mining barges, and after that its still usefull to hold on to for your first adventures as a gas cloud miner.



For gas mining the low skill ship that is better than it is a destroyer at destroyer level 1 that players train day 1 if they aren't a trial acc.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#64 - 2012-09-21 19:43:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 250 / 125s / 2

This looks good for low-end gas miners and mining lasers but I'm a bit worried about using a pair of Miner IIs. Staggering the lasers might help out, but 90GJ activation will hurt. While I realize this is with base skills, would it hurt to add 10 or 20 to the max amount? Would also help out with warp distance.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-09-21 19:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Pretty much perfect. Mines a good amount even at low skill. Has a good ore bay that isn't rediculous. Just enough slots to matter.
Looks fantastic as a T1 hull. Yes, you know where I'm going with this......


T2 versions of this please. One that specialises in Gas mining that can exceed the current equivalent 5 gas harvesters and one that specialises in something else.

Otherwise. Great work. I will be using a couple of these to suck up the Low Sec gas. We just need more boosters that are useful to create a good booster market. Whatever did happen to that idea anyways?



Also; What is it gonna be called? Can I suggest : Demeter
Arele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-09-21 19:55:26 UTC
Doddy wrote:

Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.

The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant.

Mining Frigate will be a rank 2 skill, which is like 10 days to the 'established' players. If that's too high a price, you can continue harvesting gas in bcs, cruisers or destroyers.
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-09-21 20:01:34 UTC
ORE frig-aggedon?

Pirate
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#68 - 2012-09-21 20:18:04 UTC
Doddy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.


Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.


cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
AlexHalstead
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-09-21 20:19:20 UTC
Maz3r Rakum wrote:
ORE frig-aggedon?

Pirate
Good luck with that, they're the most slippery of the ORE ships with their +2 Warp Strength and a frigate sized align time.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#70 - 2012-09-21 20:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Arele wrote:
The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant.

It's actually more than relevant for "casual" gas mining. With Gas Mining II and ORE Frigate III (which is, what, half a day of training?) you get the equivalent of 4.6 gas miners with a ****-ton of cargo.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-09-21 20:29:41 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
And yes, folks, despite its name, gas is automatically harvested into the Ore hold. Wanted to file a bug report to CCP Tuxford in case it didn't, but he was quite clever and implemented that ahead of time during the mining barge changes Evil Clever girl.

I have just one question for ya: does that mean I will be able to put gas into my orca's ore hold too?
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-09-21 20:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
I got to say that this is much approved!!! the gas mining ship was much needed and it will have a role even among the big barges.

I think that you killed about 40% of the Feature & Ideas recursive suggestions about mining with this!

Now you just need to say that you will work on the POS system like you said in the CSM meeting and all industrial players will enter nirvana state for at last a year!!!

Oh, how I wish that the Winter expansion was tomorrow....

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Doddy
Excidium.
#73 - 2012-09-21 20:40:49 UTC
Arele wrote:
Doddy wrote:

Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.

The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant.

Mining Frigate will be a rank 2 skill, which is like 10 days to the 'established' players. If that's too high a price, you can continue harvesting gas in bcs, cruisers or destroyers.


So its not a gas mining ship at all, its one that has a useless bonus no one will use. How is that keeping it relevant?

You realise gas harvesting is a rank 1 skill? currently a player can fly a destroyer with maxed gas mining in less than 5 days while to get the SAME effect from the ship actually bonused for it you would have to train ore frig 5 (which hardly anyone will do unless its a prereq for barges which i seriously doubt) AND gas mining 5 which is more like 2 weeks.

Of course the easiest way round that is reducing the req for gas harvester t2 to lvl 4 instead of 5 meaning the miner didn't need to train gas harvesting 5 to be as good, but that may be too "easy mode".
Doddy
Excidium.
#74 - 2012-09-21 20:47:03 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Arele wrote:
The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant.

It's actually more than relevant for "casual" gas mining. With Gas Mining II and ORE Frigate III (which is, what, half a day of training?) you get the equivalent of 4.6 gas miners with a ****-ton of cargo.


This would be the case of we weren't talking about such quick training skills, gas mining 4 is a half days training as well so really you are gaining 0.6 of a harvester for the 4 more days it would take you to get gas harvesting 5 at which point you are better off using anything with 5 turret slots.

The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#75 - 2012-09-21 20:54:48 UTC
Doddy wrote:
The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it.

This is why I would choose the frigate over a BC, for instance. ****, look at the align time of this thing...

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Doddy
Excidium.
#76 - 2012-09-21 21:20:16 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Doddy wrote:
The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it.

This is why I would choose the frigate over a BC, for instance. ****, look at the align time of this thing...


Yeah i am coming round to it. I just don't really like the idea of a bonused hull doing something (harvesting gas) no better than an entirely unrelated hull with no bonuses for it with less sp invested. Its more a finesse thing than an actual practical issue i guess.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-09-21 21:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: steave435
Sun Win wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.



So I can continue to fly my Harbinger or Thorax or Moa or whatever with many stabs and 5x Gas Harvester IIs or I can divert my training path to push a Rank 2 skill to 5 to then get the same performance? Bad deal for the industrialists. I was really hoping to switch over to this shiny thing when carebearing in a hole.

Edit: On the other hand, that huge ore (gas) hold is appealing.

You're missing the point.
This is a ship that a new player can be flying a few hours into the game and be pretty effective with (ore frigate a level or 2 since most of the bonus come from the role bonus, and gas cloud harvesting 2 so you can use both harvesters instead of having to get that to 5, and on top of that it's a frigate platform with the great mobility, low price and tiny amount of space required in a SMA/cargobay that comes with that ship size. Add in the advantage of having a very large ore bay instead of being restricted to a small normal cargo and the built in stab bonus. It fills its role perfectly.

Cpt Gobla wrote:
Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.

At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.

Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester
1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3

This is a good point however.
Maybe make the ship bonus a 5%/level reduction in cycle time and cap use of mining lasers and gas cloud harvesters?
A cycle time bonus provides better results then the equivalent per cycle bonus, but even with the cycle time bonus it's only equivalent to 5.33 harvesters/lasers, or equivalent to 5 with the ORE frig skill at 4. At the same time, the cap bonus keeps the revised bonus from hurting the ships cap.
It is a specialized ship, so being able to achieve results equivalent to non-specialized ships pretty early on with level 4 ship skill, and slightly outperform it with a yield increase of 6.7% at level 5 seems reasonable to me.
Doddy
Excidium.
#78 - 2012-09-21 21:25:26 UTC
I am also really happy having just realised the implications for ore thievery
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#79 - 2012-09-21 21:33:17 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Yeah i am coming round to it. I just don't really like the idea of a bonused hull doing something (harvesting gas) no better than an entirely unrelated hull with no bonuses for it with less sp invested. Its more a finesse thing than an actual practical issue i guess.

tbh, I'd prefer a 7.5% per level bonus to gas mining (5.5 gas miners at ORE Frigate V), but the benefits make up for that right now IMO.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#80 - 2012-09-21 21:33:34 UTC
Ytterbium, is the ore hold special on the frig? Because right now, you can't move gas into an ore hold. Are you intending on changing this?

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