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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Winter] Exploration Frigate Rebalance

First post
Author
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#201 - 2012-09-04 12:27:05 UTC
Is there any thoughts to improving the T2 frigates for exploration? I'd love to use a covops for exploration but the Buzzard has no drone bay which severely limits tackling rats in radars and magsites.

Are there plans only for T1 frigates?

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html

Doddy
Excidium.
#202 - 2012-09-06 09:24:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems.


wut?

Seriously unless you are trying to probe someone down in pvp there is no need for a cloak. If you are trying to probe someone down in it then you don't need your salvager.
Anders Shepard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-09-09 00:08:34 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Roime wrote:
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems.


wut?

Seriously unless you are trying to probe someone down in pvp there is no need for a cloak. If you are trying to probe someone down in it then you don't need your salvager.


Unless of course you live in nullsec, where it's the difference between an intact ship and a wreck.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#204 - 2012-09-11 07:46:25 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
So it seems the imicus is the way to go then, gets an extra drone and with any luck you will be able to fit drone damage mod or 2.
What about making a high slot that comes with a fixed fixed code breaker/analyzer. Switching between the 2 can be a script.

Actually reading this makes for a very smart idea. Combining the two into a science module that does both, but not very well, then a script loaded makes it do one better.
Would help with the usual issue of eating lots of slots.
Ronzz Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#205 - 2012-09-11 14:39:41 UTC
I am personally really going to like this as i like to scan down sites with alt and kill them with my main. Now I will be able to have him on grid pew pewing away with drones. Also will be able scan down those wormholes and cause some trouble. Twisted
Just here to rustle some Jimmies.   I'm not saying  I'm just saying.
Ronzz Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-09-11 14:43:49 UTC
Doddy wrote:
[quote=Roime]No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems.


wut?

Seriously unless you are trying to probe someone down in pvp there is no need for a cloak. If you are trying to probe someone down in it then you don't need your salvager.
[/qoute]

Someones Jimmies got rustled. ^^
Just here to rustle some Jimmies.   I'm not saying  I'm just saying.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2012-09-11 22:26:28 UTC
I like these ships as they are in the current proposal.

NUXI7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-09-11 23:31:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Since cyno lighting is such a big part of their use, the equalized cargo capacity is intended to make sure that each of them can at least keep up with the old Probe.


While I like the new ships I have to ask why you have not given the Amarr noobship 5m3 more cargo for this same reason.
NUXI7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2012-09-11 23:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: NUXI7
Also as others have mentioned. The helios needs a 3rd highslot for parity with the other covops frigates. There is no other way to fit a cloak + cyno + probe launcher.

Also checkout this awesome anti-helios propoganda I made after being told to stop shitting on it in the TEST Recon recruitment thread.

http://i.imgur.com/IQwQ6.jpg

Or the older one of one of our mildirs after he had to cross train:

http://i.imgur.com/M8knX.jpg
Rant Absolaine
Zacharia Explorations Group
#210 - 2012-09-12 03:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rant Absolaine
I'm not sure where this would fit in terms of T1 vs. T2 exploratory-type ships, but I've recently made a discovery that I'm not too happy with, and as a long-time pilot of exploratory-type ships I figgered I wanted to address it with the Devs but wasn't sure how to approach it... this seems a fairly relevant thread, though, given my utter lack of previous experience with the EVE Forums.

To sum up: I've put a lot of effort (in a meandering, I've-got-the-attention-span-of-a-fruit-fly kind of way) into researching and building Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II rigs and now that I finally gathered blueprints, materials and skills together and actually made one, I'm extremely disappointed. As I said, I'm a long-time explorer-type ship pilot and I like nothing more than going into an empty system and just scanning to see what I can find - all this time I've sort of viewed T2 Gravity Capacitor rigs as something that would significantly boost my scanning ability in the ships I'm familiar with flying... only I never actually checked the stats until after I made my first rig and fitted it.

I mistakenly assumed that since I can fit two T1 Gravity Capacitor rigs on my Probes and Cheetahs for a healthy 20% scan strength bonus, that once I did all the leg work I'd eventually be able to fit T2 Grav. Capacitor rigs for an even better scanning bonus. The problem being that the T1 rigs have a Calibration cost of 200 - I can fit two of 'em on my ship for increased scan bonus to the exclusion of any other rigs allowing me to do anything else on an exploratory-type ship, and I'm cool with that and to me it makes sense. I come to find that the Calibration cost for a single T2 Grav. Capacitor rig is 300, however, which means that after all this research and training and effort, I fit the first one on my ship for an awesome 15% bonus to scan strength per rig... and that was it, I couldn't use two T2 scanning bonus rigs.

I essentially discovered that I wasted all my time and effort and could've just stuck with two T1 rigs on a scanning ship for a 20% bonus since there are apparently no ships of any sort that have a Calibration capacity of higher than 400 (Note: I made a fairly healthy effort checking attributes on a wide variety of ships in-game to see if this was the case, and it appears thus so far as I can tell, but I don't have the time or motivation to systematically check every ship in the game to see if this absolutely true.) Sure, I can still fit a Salvage Tackle rig or something on after putting on a T2 Grav. Capacitor rig, but as I currently see it, there is no real advantage to fitting a T2 Gravity Capacitor rigs if one is purely looking for a higher scan strength bonus - which, personally, I am.

So far as solutions/suggestions go, I think it reasonable that T2 Gravity Capacitor rigs keep their current 300 Calibration cost, which would still make them usable and valid on a wide variety of ships while still weighting their use in favor of pure-exploration ships... but please adjust the Calibration capacity on the T2 exploratory ships (Cheetah, et al) so that they can fit more than one of these rigs? (Ideally, I'd say lower their Calibration cost to 200 the same as the T1 rigs and let market costs and manufacturing costs and all else involved even out their relative in-game value, but I know little to nothing about game balancing and much prefer poking around in the dark corners of space with my scan probes looking for expensive abandoned loot.)

Thank you!
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#211 - 2012-09-12 15:08:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We wanted these ships to feel like an expedition vessel for newer players, something that can run sites independently and with enough cargo, no ammo use and extra dronespace to take long journeys away from their home base (even if they stay in highsec). If the style of ship is embraced then these could possibly serve as stepping stones into some kind of tech two "Science vessel" in the future.

So, will this make these ships a go to for WH site hackers?
Whatever the case, I like the idea of science vessels, we could use some dedicated mini-profession ships. Also, I think Novafox would like to have a word with you.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#212 - 2012-09-12 23:07:58 UTC
Most of the thread is positive, but I cant help but think they are all the same now. Can't we switch up the ship bonuses just a touch? It is ok if one ship is better at hacking than salvage for instance (imo)

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#213 - 2012-09-13 15:10:53 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Most of the thread is positive, but I cant help but think they are all the same now. Can't we switch up the ship bonuses just a touch? It is ok if one ship is better at hacking than salvage for instance (imo)

That should really apply to all of these rebalanced ships, to be honest. It would be great for the shops themselves to provide some reason to cross-train
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#214 - 2012-09-13 15:37:01 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Roime wrote:
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems.


wut?

Seriously unless you are trying to probe someone down in pvp there is no need for a cloak. If you are trying to probe someone down in it then you don't need your salvager.


Because sitting uncloaked at the sun in a T1 scan frig is how the pros scan.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-09-13 18:50:00 UTC
Im least happy with these frigs than the rest, not because i dont prob much, but because they all do the same thing. Might as well make one Science frig and get it over with
Belsina
Noob Hole Project
#216 - 2012-09-15 17:30:31 UTC
I like the idea about the new T1 Scan Frigs :)

i support it
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#217 - 2012-09-19 23:03:32 UTC
I like the concept, but if the bonuses are identicle and the fitting attributes fairly similar it leads to a lot of racial homogenization. that seems to be the unfortunate side effect of all the wonderfull buffs, retools, and improvements being made of late. The wierd, quirky bonuses that werent really all that useful frequently were what made the ships feel more unique. I understand some of them are being integrated into the hulls themselves, but it still kinda feels like many of the ships are getting "roled" into being too similar.

additionally, i don't know if you were planning on looking into tweaking rigs at all, but the hacking/archeology/scanning rigs are pretty steep on calibration costs and i feel rigs in general could use some tweaking, but i will reserve that for another thread.

why not do something like this to help keep some of the racial flavor and make the ships perform a little better. i will italicize my changes for ease of reading



Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time

10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range
Role Bonus:
50% reduction to Electronics Rigs calibration cost

Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 3 M (+2), 4 L (+1), 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 26 PWG (+4), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 250(+6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time

!0% Bonus to missile velocity
Role Bonus:
50% Reduction to Electronics Rigs calibration cost

Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (+1), 2 turrets (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 24 PWG (+4), 260 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 200(-26)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
5% Bonus to drone tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% Reduction to Electronics Rigs calibration cost

Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 21 PWG (+1), 250 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 275(-14)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 40(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
10% Bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff

Role Bonus:
50% Reduction to Electronics Rigs calibration cost

Slot layout: 3 H (+1), 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets, 2 launchers (+2)
Fittings: 25 PWG (+5), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 225(-49)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+5) / 35(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+80)
Aaron Greil
Heresy Incorporated
#218 - 2012-09-21 02:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Greil
yeah, I too, am of the mind that these ships are way too homogenized. There is really no reason to pick one over the other. Let them at least follow each race's design philosophy. The magnate should be shooting lasers, etc.

To use the magnate as an example, why not give these ships a role bonus in line with their racial weapon types, something like this:

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes
5% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Role Bonus:
50% to small energy turret damage
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+2), 4 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 36 PWG (+14), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 450(+64) / 250(+6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): (unsure of proper numbers, but should be 10% under combat frig)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-10) / 0(-10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)

With a setup like this, the ship is combat capable just enough to take on the lowest end sites by itself, meaning a noob can do it all with one go. I think that was the point by adding massive drone bays to everything in the first place. However, a set up like this retains each race's unique flavor. The 50% damage bonus more or less makes 2 turrets perform like 3. However, its dps is certainly not powerful enough to fight like a punisher or executioner, and given its severely limited powergrid, this is entirely unable to be a front line combat ship.

It seems the intent was to allow a young player a ship just capable enough to start an exploration career, hence the increased fittings and slots. However, the drones on EVERY ship is pretty uncreative and steps on gallente's toes. It also gives a poor progression to better ships. I think the explorer frigs should still carry the distinct flavor of each race, while having the slots and resources to be able to do their intended job. Part of that job is entry-level pve. In this case, that means enough combat capability to field energy turrets with reasonable damage, and enough grid and cap left over for a small armor repper and afterburner. With this in mind, they shouldn't be able to contend with straight combat frigs, such as the punisher, and even with the slot layout and bonuses I suggest above, it would still not compare.

Edit: Furthermore, a static damage bonus would allow for better ammo efficiency for long trips (for caldari and minmatar, anyway.)
PartyVaN
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2012-09-21 18:21:13 UTC
I am also curious if some of these T1 changes will carry over to the T2 covops ships, specifically removing the worthless offensives bonuses from the T1 frigate skills (Buzzard is probably the worst).
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#220 - 2012-09-22 02:08:17 UTC
PartyVaN wrote:
I am also curious if some of these T1 changes will carry over to the T2 covops ships, specifically removing the worthless offensives bonuses from the T1 frigate skills (Buzzard is probably the worst).


I hope not, this is too awesome right here LolLol


[Helios, Super Drone]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Drone Navigation Computer I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S

Small Drone Durability Enhancer II
Small Ancillary Current Router II


Hobgoblin II x1