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Missiles still viable or not
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#61 - 2012-09-21 10:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
Typical trained into my tengu and quite comfortable in it, then read that heavy missiles are getting nerfed. As a casual player who mainly pve's is the nerf actually worth worrying about? if it is then what is the logical choice of ship to aim for next? i have partially trained gunnery skills and battleship skills.



Start training HAMs now; prepare to replace your Rigor rigs with Hydraulic bay thrusters and Flares, consider how your fit will work with a tracking computer and maybe a tracking enhancer. By the time the change hits, you'll be able to modify your Tengu to a HAM configuration that will actually be a lot like your current HML config - maybe a little more raw DPS, maybe a little worse vs elite frigates, a few Km less range, but otherwise not much different at the end of the day.

EDIT: and with T2 Rage ammo, probably quite a bit more raw DPS.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#62 - 2012-09-21 10:36:01 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
reamau wrote:
Did I misread those dev notes? You'd think the entire race was being removed.

I thought it was only HEAVY missiles getting nerfed... other than the TD part, but the OP here specifically said he PVE's.

I'd think HAM tengu would fine, if you like the tengu- sure, the range would be less but by the time these (currenly only proposed) changes go into effect HAMs might have even more damage seperation.

You may want to think about upsizing to battleship and using cruise missiles, especially if you have all the other various missile related skills trained. Would probably be a lot quicker than training lots of gun skills, plus would likely be similar to what you are already doing.... if you are doing C1/C2 then I realize you couldn't bring in a BS, but mission running should be fine.



The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage.


With the proposed TE/TC changes, Cruise missiles will be awesome for PvE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-09-21 11:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cede Forster
Malcanis wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
reamau wrote:
Did I misread those dev notes? You'd think the entire race was being removed.

I thought it was only HEAVY missiles getting nerfed... other than the TD part, but the OP here specifically said he PVE's.

I'd think HAM tengu would fine, if you like the tengu- sure, the range would be less but by the time these (currenly only proposed) changes go into effect HAMs might have even more damage seperation.

You may want to think about upsizing to battleship and using cruise missiles, especially if you have all the other various missile related skills trained. Would probably be a lot quicker than training lots of gun skills, plus would likely be similar to what you are already doing.... if you are doing C1/C2 then I realize you couldn't bring in a BS, but mission running should be fine.



The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage.


With the proposed TE/TC changes, Cruise missiles will be awesome for PvE.


i am pretty sure they find a way to make all missile users equally screwed - just give it a chance

because as you pointed out, this changes would/will affect all missiles systems - essentialy making them better and since that is not intended, what will happen ?

more nerf to more missiles
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-09-21 17:44:24 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Why do people call "25% range nerf"?
It's 25% flight time nerf and 8% flight speed buff, resulting in 19% range nerf. And that before factoring in improved missile dynamics CCP promised.
Just to be precise.


I personally think a 20-25% range nerf for HMLs and Cruise Missiles would be justified. Don't agree with the dmg nerf to HMLs, though. Cut off 25% range from HMLs and the HAMs become more appealing.
Speaker4 theDead
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2012-09-21 18:02:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:



Totally going to be fine...

25% less tank
20% less gank
25% less range

but a 11% bonus to range via a tracking enhancer is TOTALLY going to make up for it.


The drake is now a BC and not a poor mans battleship. OP success.



Yes, because it had BS type damage before...Right?....Right? Roll

Glad I don't fly that crap....Feel sorry for the newer players though, now they will just have to wait to train up skills to fly anything decent....Lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2012-09-21 18:13:37 UTC
Speaker4 theDead wrote:


Glad I don't fly that crap....Feel sorry for the newer players though, now they will just have to wait to train up skills to fly anything decent....Lol




Yes, it gets low end BS damage, BS range with a BS tank. It is literally a baby battleship.
Ensign X
#67 - 2012-09-21 18:39:16 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now?


Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers.

But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! X


I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2012-09-21 18:40:42 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now?


Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers.

But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! X


I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu.


Less DPS is just as bad for themLol
Ensign X
#69 - 2012-09-21 18:44:52 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage.


Cruise missiles are perfectly fine as is for PVE, and will become even better than they are now once this re-balance hits. No more T2 penalties, Tracking Enhancers or a Tracking Computer to improve their DPS application to smaller ships and better base stats on T2 missiles. So, yeah, Cruise missiles will be just fine for PVE.
Ensign X
#70 - 2012-09-21 18:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ensign X
baltec1 wrote:
Less DPS is just as bad for themLol


Will it be less DPS though? I'm really not sure since I'm terrible at math. I really don't believe the difference between a 3x BCS, 1x TE HAM Tengu vs. 4x BCS HML Tengu will be that large. You'll lose some range, certainly, as well as some DPS application to smaller, elite ships, but against everything cruiser sized and above, I'm certain the HAM Tengu will be just as good or better than the current HML Tengu.
Jason O'Neil
Unlucky Guys
#71 - 2012-09-21 18:55:16 UTC
This nerf means those in tengus running sites actually have to play the game rather than picking a target and hitting F1.

Put HAMs on your tengu, afterburner web and target painter and youll realise you were at nothing with the HMLs anyway.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-09-21 18:57:12 UTC
Jason O'Neil wrote:
This nerf means those in tengus running sites actually have to play the game rather than picking a target and hitting F1.

Put HAMs on your tengu, afterburner web and target painter and youll realise you were at nothing with the HMLs anyway.
One group's nerf is a community's balance.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2012-09-21 18:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ensign X wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Less DPS is just as bad for themLol


Will it be less DPS though? I'm really not sure since I'm terrible at math. I really don't believe the difference between a 3x BCS, 1x TE HAM Tengu vs. 4x BCS HML Tengu will be that large. You'll lose some range, certainly, as well as some DPS application to smaller, elite ships, but against everything cruiser sized and above, I'm certain the HAM Tengu will be just as good or better than the current HML Tengu.


Well I for one am counting on peoples lazyness. Rather than the more active HAM tengu I hope they will be going for more efficient battleships like back in the good old days.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#74 - 2012-09-21 19:14:54 UTC
IB4UGA

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-09-21 19:30:21 UTC
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:

I personally think a 20-25% range nerf for HMLs and Cruise Missiles would be justified. Don't agree with the dmg nerf to HMLs, though. Cut off 25% range from HMLs and the HAMs become more appealing.

I don't understand the logic of this conclusion. HM's would still have better damage application due to the GMP skill making up for a part of the DPS difference and it would still leave HM's with relatively close damage and a massive advantage in engagement window compared to HAM's
nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-09-21 19:48:18 UTC
now my 2 cents on the hml nerf.


Sound like you tengu pilots that run level 4 are going to up to a bs. so deal with it i have trained t2 hml and ham's so hml were overpower vs other long range med weapons system and its about time.

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#77 - 2012-09-21 19:54:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
Typical trained into my tengu and quite comfortable in it, then read that heavy missiles are getting nerfed. As a casual player who mainly pve's is the nerf actually worth worrying about? if it is then what is the logical choice of ship to aim for next? i have partially trained gunnery skills and battleship skills.



Start training HAMs now; prepare to replace your Rigor rigs with Hydraulic bay thrusters and Flares, consider how your fit will work with a tracking computer and maybe a tracking enhancer. By the time the change hits, you'll be able to modify your Tengu to a HAM configuration that will actually be a lot like your current HML config - maybe a little more raw DPS, maybe a little worse vs elite frigates, a few Km less range, but otherwise not much different at the end of the day.

EDIT: and with T2 Rage ammo, probably quite a bit more raw DPS.

^^
This.


I switched to HAMs on my Tengu almost immediately; first flight showed me that HML Tengus just weren't my flavor. I've never looked back.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Pipa Porto
#78 - 2012-09-22 01:34:51 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now?


Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers.

But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! X


I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu.


Marlona smoked it. Missionbears are most likely going to use TCs and spend more on tank than sacrifice any paper DPS.

Hmmm, more expensive mission tengus to hunt... mmmm

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ensign X
#79 - 2012-09-22 01:41:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ensign X wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mr Chili Palmer wrote:
ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now?


Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers.

But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! X


I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu.


Marlona smoked it. Missionbears are most likely going to use TCs and spend more on tank than sacrifice any paper DPS.

Hmmm, more expensive mission tengus to hunt... mmmm


She smoked something, that's for sure. The only questions are, a) what did she smoke? and, b) why isn't she sharing?

Protip: Tracking enhancers still aren't midslot items no matter how much you smoke.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#80 - 2012-09-22 02:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Protip: Tracking enhancers still aren't midslot items no matter how much you smoke.

We have a lot of very obtuse people in this thread that would rather get hung up on the mistaken use of the word Enhancer instead of Computer than actually recognize the point being made.

If they want to get back to, or surpass, their previous levels of damage and range they can easily do so... but it will likely involve giving up some of their tank to do so.

When you consider that the actual problem was the combination of long range, heavy damage AND a ridiculous tank I would say this is a rather elegant solution... particularly since it also will benefit other missile boats that desperately needed a way to enhance either their range or their ability to apply damage effectively vs various classes of ships.

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