These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Fiction

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Naval Doctrines:

Author
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-07-23 02:57:06 UTC
I've been wondering if anyone has thought at all about the naval doctrines that the various navies would have in EVE... How a Gallente Battleship Squadron is organized, the order of battle or something like that.

I started writing a story that will probably eventually appear on fanfiction.net that revolves around a Gallente Frigate Squadron composed of pod pilots (So it's a front line unit not NPC easy opponents like we see in the game). I just use this for background info really but... eh.

Here's there TO&E: I made up a class for the 'Destroyer Leader' (See details in Features and Ideas Discussion)

Gallente Federation – 289th Line Frigate Squadron

289th Command Division:
1. Alternus-class Destroyer DD-0283 “Commandant of Vale” (Flagship and Squad Booster)
2. Catalyst-class Destroyer DD-8523 “Marksman of Tule” (Flagship Escort)
3. Maulus-class Frigate FF-0614 “Blinds of Luminare” (Dampening Section Commander)
4. Maulus-class Frigate FF-2966 “Fog of Intak”

361st Combat Division:
1. Enyo-class Assault Frigate AF-7285 “Ruby Shield” (Division Leader)
2. Incursus-class Frigate FF-7587 “Azure Shield”
3. Incursus-class Frigate FF-2326 “Blued Steel” (Section Leader)
4. Incursus-class Frigate FF-9963 “Knight’s Amor”

362nd Combat Division:
1. Enyo-class Assault Frigate AF-7289 “Star Lancer” (Division Leader)
2. Incursus-class Frigate FF-3945 “Storm Lance”
3. Incursus-class Frigate FF-1663 “Blaster’s Shield” (Section Leader)
4. Incursus-class Frigate FF-1289 “Plasma Anvil”

841st Attack Division:
1. Taranis-class Interceptor Frigate IF-6517 “Art’s Arrows” (Division Leader)
2. Atron-class Frigate FF-1556 “Swift’s Sword”
3. Atron-class Frigate FF-8130 “Blazing Blast” (Section Leader)
4. Atron-class Frigate FF-4439 “Peregrine’s Grasp”

781st Bombardment Division:
1. Ishkur-class Assault Frigate AF-663 “Apollo’s Crest” (Division Leader)
2. Navitas-class Frigate FF-289 “Shepard of Felin”
3. Navitas-class Frigate FF-289 “Keeper of Birds” (Section Leader)
4. Navitas-class Frigate FF-289 “Herd of Asps”
Katalci
Kismesis
#2 - 2012-07-25 01:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
If they're piloted by capsuleers, why are they in scrubships rather than the t2 versions? That seems awfully wasteful of human resources.

I would imagine that the naval doctrines are somewhat similar to capsuleer fleets, but with less use of logistics ships in the role of remote repair. The navies would also vary racially due to wealth and population; the Caldari, for example -- the smallest empire --are very battleship-heavy, their BSs outnumbering any other empire's despite their size, because they have the incredible economy to do so and also need to get as much out of their numbers as they can. They fight at long range because they need to minimize losses.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-07-25 04:39:36 UTC
From my reading of the costs of training capsuleers and equipping the navies, the costs of T2 ships are such that only a select number of capsuleers even in an empire fleet are worth putting into a T2 vessel. A T2 frigate costs 10-20 million isk or more... ISK is an interstellar banking unit, much like how in the old days countries would exchange gold for major purchases. I remember reading somewhere that 1,000 isk is over 6,000,000 Gallente Credits.

The cost of training a capsuleer is immense... but the cost of a T2 frigate is several orders of magnitude more immense. Moreover, a pod pilot is not immediately capable of piloting T2 vessels, so it makes little sense to not utilize T1 vessels when possible.

As for fleet composition and doctrine... I expect it to vary a greatly deal based on the racial tendencies of each navy. For example...

The Caldari Fleet is designed around the idea of long range stand off engagements with missiles and railguns with Torpedo Battleships, HAM Cruisers, and Rocket equipped Frigates acting more as skirmishers attempting to hold off the main body of an attacking fleet at range so that they can rain death upon them from a distance. Caldari Navy ships normally do not fit Blasters.

The Gallente Fleet is designed around close range engagements with drones and blasters. Most long range firepower is provided by sentry drones. Almost all Gallente Fleet ships are Afterburner or MWD equipped to close with the enemy and destroy them at their short ranges. Most Gallente Fleet doctrine revolves around forcing a close range engagement and sewing chaos through the enemy formation. They often achieve this through remote dampening the enemy to force them to close range.

The Amarr Fleet is designed around survivability but they lack mobility. Amarrian Doctrine is the most traditional sort often times focusing on the idea of line engagements and slowly moving battle lines shooting each other at optimal range. Their use of Tracking Disruptors is mainly a counter to the two methods of Minmatar fighting by denying them range or tracking depending on the range the Minmatar are fighting at.

The Minmatar Fleet is split in its use, focusing on extreme close range at one end and extreme long range on the other. Both engagement envelops rely heavily on the superior mobility of most Minmatar ships. Often times Minmatar frigates and cruisers will descend upon an enemy fleet like a cloud of skirmishers, getting under the tracking of their enemy. Some of these ships will then use target painters to mark enemy vessels for destruction so that their longer ranged support ships often of the Battleship classes can then destroy them with impunity.

Capsuleer fleets are fortunate in that they can use a synergy of different abilities in their fleets. ECM paired with Sensor Dampening, Tracking Disruption paired with fast moving frigates, Target Painting paired with Missile strikes. It is this synergy along with the superior performance of capsuleers to conventional ships in all respects that make them so dangerous.
Shou Kaukonen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-08-11 00:53:01 UTC
The Caldari, let's not forget, have obnoxiously effective ewar and a few ewar benefits the other races don't have, like ewar battleships. I imagine the Caldari war ethos as somewhat conservative and cautious: set up a firing line to wear down the enemy with torpedoes and long-range hybrids, then move up the ECM boats to begin jamming enemy heavy-hitters as they move into engagement range. Having thus established control of the field, then and only then do the shorter-range skirmishers advance to hit targets of opportunity and further stymie enemy advances. The Caldari are likely the best at strategic withdrawal, because they have a wide window of opportunity to assess the situation, and excellent ability to cover their retreat with ECM and pressure at very long ranges. This probably makes the Caldari best at victory through attrition, but a bit less adept at defending a stationary target, as multiple fleets would then be necessary to 'manage' the enemy.

The Gallente, I imagine as quite likely to use short range hot-drops. Their drones make them surprisingly flexible at damage dealing from long distances, and their hybrids have damage bonuses rather than range bonuses. Their drone boats jump in and engage the enemy while identifying targets of opportunity. Once the enemy have engaged, the blaster-fleet that has been waiting in reserve jumps in at point blank range, flanking the enemy and burning down a few juicy targets before the enemy fleet can even react. Either the enemy retreats, taking significant losses, or tries to salvage the situation after having been wrong-footed by the Gallente flanking maneuver, a tricky situation at best. Their ewar supports this tactic - sensor dampeners make locking more difficult, meaning that the initial-engagement drone wing has more survivability, and can more easily draw the enemy into a vulnerable formation. All of this would likely make the Gallente equally good at offense and defense, but less well-equipped at dealing with overwhelming force, as their tactics require commitment of forces (either destroyable drones, or short range skirmishers) with no guarantee of success.

Everyone knows what the basic Amarr doctrine is: summon overwhelming force, charge the enemy and fall on them like the very hammer of God. Amarr ships have the least tactically flexible makeup overall, but make up for it by being the toughest and having very respectable raw damage, to boot. Since the Amarr dislike retreating, their doctrine would likely favor overwhelming force, picking fights that you are more likely to win and wading in, guns blazing. Their armor lets them survive extreme punishment, and their racial ewar equipment, tracking disruptors and energy neutralizers, reduce the effectiveness of enemy offense and defense to further tilt the odds of a full-on brawl in their favor. That said, they are aware of their tactical shortcomings (slow ships and narrow optimal ranges), and so are about as likely as the Gallente to jump in at short range without warning...except here, it's the entire fleet, not just a flanking wing. Any other faction would likely dismiss such an approach as unacceptably reckless, but more than anyone else, Amarrians are likely to conceive of battle in terms of 'victory or death'. The Amarr are probably the best at dealing with defense and siege, simply by virtue of numbers, toughness, and freedom from reliance on situational tactical 'tricks', but have limited options for dealing with an overwhelming enemy force other than "engage, fire, and pray".

The Minmatar are the most likely to engage in hit-and-run tactics - they have some bruisers in their fleet, but are likely to have less durable ships than their enemy. Their speed, then, becomes their greatest advantage. They jump in and engage the enemy at optimal, dictating range as no other faction can. If the situation looks to be turning against them, they jump out, reposition and strike again to regain tactical advantage. Their ewar aids in this: their specialized webber boats enable them to shut down enemy attempts to get in close, buying them a longer strike window. Target painters, on the other hand, are the only racial ewar that directly boosts dps done to the enemy, allowing them to hit harder in a given amount of time and make the most out of their attack. Their flexibility makes them the best faction at countering the enemy's tactics: They can nibble the Gallente to death without giving their flankers the chance to drop in and raise hell (or even set up a fast autocannon wing to turn the Gallente tactic against them), they can jump right into the Caldari's face and use speed to minimize damage from missiles, and they can use their range dictation to great effect against the Amarr as long as they have the initiative. This likely makes them more effective on offense than defense, since playing to their greatest strengths requires them to be fluid and maneuverable - good traits for wrong-footing an enemy strike group, but not for withstanding a siege. Like the Caldari, they would require greater numbers and multiple fleets to keep the enemy pinned down.
Tricky Dutch
Anoikis Equilibrium
Honorable Third Party
#5 - 2012-09-17 04:01:28 UTC
This sounds super interesting. Would you do me a favor, keep me posted? It's got me somewhat inspired to attempt something, but instead of a navy pilot's life, from the perspective of us in-game pirates. Twisted
Silvana Ronuken
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-09-17 15:44:37 UTC
Tricky Dutch wrote:
This sounds super interesting. Would you do me a favor, keep me posted? It's got me somewhat inspired to attempt something, but instead of a navy pilot's life, from the perspective of us in-game pirates. Twisted


agreed, lets put some brains in how do pirate fleets work.
Cmdr Baxter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-09-21 03:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cmdr Baxter
The Caldari Navy is - at least in my opinion - smaller than other navies. I see it as a fighting force which, through circumstances beyond its control, relies on technical prowess and superior training instead of tonnage.

Svetlana Scarlet, in The Caldari Dialogues, makes an excellent argument that the role of the Caldari Navy is not to serve as an offensive force. They instead provide that national-level military institution that can unite the megacorporations, who we know to be very suspicious and paranoid of the other corporations. Under this circumstance they need something that collectively supersedes their individual interests, behind which they can rally if the State ever comes under threat from outside forces (which, incidentally, would threaten corporate property and their "bottom line").

At the same time, the megacorporations would probably not support the existence of an independent third party with the capacity to influence affairs in their respective territories. Remember that there are mostly likely only three institutions in the State which outrank them: the House of Records, the Chief Executive Panel, and the Caldari Business Tribunal. The Navy is not one of them. In my opinion naval funding probably comes from the megacorporations, through the Chief Executive Panel, providing them with a tool of leverage to control naval affairs.

Any naval scholar or military veteran will probably be able to confirm to you that a military force relying on technical excellence vice sheer numbers is not going to be caught in a knock-down, drag-'em-out fight. Other factors such as mobility, damage control techniques, engagement envelopes, and survivability are more important to the underdog. More exotic and multipurpose weapons are also part of this - F.O.F. missiles, for example, can be fired from a "standard" launcher. That ability to quickly change type of ordinance is important in these sorts of situations.

If you don't believe me, just go ask the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force.

Commander S. "Old Man" Baxter, CN (ret.)

Chief Archivist, The Synenose Accord

David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#8 - 2012-09-21 17:33:44 UTC
In Ruthless winning the contract to produce the Raven for the Navy played an important role in the story because Ishukone needed the money. It seems to me that this might indicate what we would recognize as a more normal relationship between the state's armed forces and corporations. The military isn't a joint venture between the corporations that is funded by them and subservient to them (for the most part) but its own entity with its own authority (it is entirely possible that this authority does not supersede that of the corporations but exists on the same level, if not in principle at least in practice). This would also explain why the corporations tend to field their own private forces like the Ishukone Watch, Lai Dai Protection Service, Peace and Order Unit, etc.
Cmdr Baxter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-09-22 00:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cmdr Baxter
David Forge wrote:
... The military isn't a joint venture between the corporations that is funded by them and subservient to them (for the most part) but its own entity with its own authority (it is entirely possible that this authority does not supersede that of the corporations but exists on the same level, if not in principle at least in practice).

Why couldn't it be? If a megacorporation were to reduce the financing they contribute yearly to the Navy, it would be seen as un-Caldari in a society that places value on the greater good, efficiency, and productivity. Using the Navy as a tool of one megacorporation would, also, be seen as un-Caldari. Wouldn't investors lose confidence in an executive who attempted to misuse a national institution that works on behalf of all Caldari, regardless of corporate citizenship?

Additionally, there's nothing in prime fiction to suggest the Navy being on an equal footing with the megacorporations. To the contrary, I believe the decision to evacuate Caldari Prime was made following the Morning of Reckoning, implying that even as far back as 194 years the megacorporations wielded the true power in the State. This was again confirmed in The Empyrean Age, when Fleet Admiral Engsten deferred to Tibus Heth's request for a meeting, based solely on the fact that he was a mega-corporate executive.

Commander S. "Old Man" Baxter, CN (ret.)

Chief Archivist, The Synenose Accord

David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#10 - 2012-09-22 02:50:20 UTC
If corporation did provide the funds for the Navy to operate then it is very odd that they would try to win contracts for the production of its equipment? They would give money to the Navy which would then turn around and give the money back to them to get hardware. Why not just donate supplies directly?

As far as de jure and de facto control Caldari society is hard to figure out. I am not aware (or have forgotten) of any case where it was explicitly stated or demonstrated that there is an official arrangement of the Navy beneath the megacorporations. That aside, I am sure at least during certain instances a megacorporation or a collection of them were able to influence military action in a decisive way but I would wager that this exercise of control was of the unofficial variety. Everything regarding Tibus Heth is probably best left aside, those were not ordinary times and he was not an ordinary CEO. I think The Empyrean Age showed that Heth was acting above and beyond his station after becoming CEO by taking opportunity of the social unrest and dissatisfaction with the old order.
Tricky Dutch
Anoikis Equilibrium
Honorable Third Party
#11 - 2012-09-22 05:10:51 UTC
Silvana, my thoughts behind player-pirate fleets (At least from my experience in-game) is that they are run on a VERY Ad Hoc basis, which would allow flexibility and, I think, add interest.

If you want to co-write this with me, message me sometime. I'm not on much in-game due to RL anymore, but I can certainly try sometime.