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Increasing support for gaming on Linux
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Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#21 - 2012-08-18 20:15:10 UTC
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Marcus Barrick wrote:
CCP knows they have linux users.. How many They prob do not know sense wine masks it anyways. Will CCP ever make a linux client Native no transmog cyder.... Who knows?

I always see this problem as an easily solvable one.

A checkbox in the settings page that says "check this box if and only if you are running this software on linux".

You know, the client already connects to CCP's servers! Blink It may as well tell the server "hey, another turbonerd associated with account X, Y and Z".


Back in 2009 someone asked CCP at the fanfest to not forget about the Linux players and Torfi basically said that they already know how many are playing eve with wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BFEi2aIvsFA#t=330s
Leika van Highgarden
Weyland-Yutani Co.
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-09-21 12:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Leika van Highgarden
Quote:
I always see this problem as an easily solvable one.

A checkbox in the settings page that says "check this box if and only if you are running this software on linux".


Checkbox sounds nice, but disregard people that can't even get the game to run properly on Linux... Currently I have to use the damn windows install to play...

I haven't been around that long, but wasn't there a Linux client some time ago?
Kontalaa
New Eden Trading Association
#23 - 2012-09-21 17:24:06 UTC
Leika van Highgarden wrote:
I haven't been around that long, but wasn't there a Linux client some time ago?

nope. there never was a native linux-cient.

there was a prepackaged client using cadega (a commercial wine-ripoff), but noone used it because it had worse graphics and the win-client in wine ran better and smoother.
Neuntausendeins
#24 - 2012-10-01 06:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausendeins
Karak Terrel wrote:
Back in 2009 someone asked CCP at the fanfest to not forget about the Linux players and Torfi basically said that they already know how many are playing eve with wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BFEi2aIvsFA#t=330s


I believe they are talking about their so called "linux client". And back when it existed, it didn't support the new shaders and "premium graphics" and had worse performance than wine. No wonder nobody used it.
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2012-10-02 15:46:18 UTC
I'd love to know the ACTUAL figures of clients running under Linux.

Since 2009, ditching the half-assed CCP client, and moving on a matured WINE, over a far better Linux panorama (better video drivers, better kernels, etc.), I think that the percentage increased a lot.

I have a wagonload of linux nerds in my coalition alone.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>
Moistmuffin RKHT
My Little Uniponisus
#26 - 2012-10-02 18:15:48 UTC
Cray47 wrote:
My random thoughts on the topic:

Linux has been suffering from fragmentation of way too many random "not following standards / messiah / prophet" developers and thus has become a complete mess as fast as performance and compatibility is concerned on random desktop machines (PulseAudio anyone ??, or would you prefer nouveau that often prevents potential users from starting Linux LiveCDs ?? - 100 billion useless distros any1 ?).

The system needs a Bill Gates, sad but true - Linus Torvalds can only complain about how bad Gnome 3 is.

Linux client would mean extra money to be spent by CCP, I'd rather see that money allocated in other EVE/CCP Products, tbh.

That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

Native EvE ARM Toaster Client (NEATC) anyone ??:

http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/riz-toaster.jpg


The fractions between the distros and gui's is really a bar to entry for any developer as if they choose one they get a bunch of angry voices, if they try to do all of them they run into issues with consistency issues in performance among the user base and then what takes priority for fixes? Debian based or rpm based packages? Gnome, kde or xfce? What about Fedora users versus CentOS versus Ubuntu and past three versions of each that have been released in the last couple years? Do they focus on 32 and 64 bit versions or just 64? Once that's figured out you can figure out which video driver releases you want to support....

Nightmare.

I created Ave Molech and I love ponies.
Jenna MarieIV
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-10-05 10:57:31 UTC
Moistmuffin RKHT wrote:
Cray47 wrote:
My random thoughts on the topic:

Linux has been suffering from fragmentation of way too many random "not following standards / messiah / prophet" developers and thus has become a complete mess as fast as performance and compatibility is concerned on random desktop machines (PulseAudio anyone ??, or would you prefer nouveau that often prevents potential users from starting Linux LiveCDs ?? - 100 billion useless distros any1 ?).

The system needs a Bill Gates, sad but true - Linus Torvalds can only complain about how bad Gnome 3 is.

Linux client would mean extra money to be spent by CCP, I'd rather see that money allocated in other EVE/CCP Products, tbh.

That being said, a native Linux Client would be a total waste of money since packages / kernel patches / optimizations differ from distro to distro.

Native EvE ARM Toaster Client (NEATC) anyone ??:

http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/riz-toaster.jpg


The fractions between the distros and gui's is really a bar to entry for any developer as if they choose one they get a bunch of angry voices, if they try to do all of them they run into issues with consistency issues in performance among the user base and then what takes priority for fixes? Debian based or rpm based packages? Gnome, kde or xfce? What about Fedora users versus CentOS versus Ubuntu and past three versions of each that have been released in the last couple years? Do they focus on 32 and 64 bit versions or just 64? Once that's figured out you can figure out which video driver releases you want to support....

Nightmare.


I'm tired of hearing this crap. You don't know what you are talking about, stop posting on the subject. In fact, a lot of people on this thread need to just stfu with their ignorant nonsense.

Distros do not vary as much as you think they do. All they need to do is target a large and popular distro like Ubuntu or fedora. They can make a rpm and deb package if they like, but a basic tgz is fine for everyone. Nothing stops them from shipping static libs with the game. 32 or 64 bit doesn't matter. Shipping 32 bit only would be fine since 64 bit systems run 32 bit bins fine and the game isn't 64 bit on windows anyway. Gnome, kde or xfce don't matter because games don't use desktop guis. The icons types and locations have been standardized across the board for many years. They only need to target opengl, maybe with nvidia and amd / ati tweaks (like you do on windows). Video driver versions don't matter any more than they do on windows.

Why you are so ignorant and decided to post as if you know at all what you are talking about is beyond me. There are lots of proprietary, closed source apps on Linux and few vendors have problems maintaining them. Not a shred of truth in your whole post, so just go away.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-10-07 10:53:49 UTC
hate to say it no matter which game forum you ask the software company you pay money to play there game for a linux client all the windows fanboys come out like somehow them supporting linux is going to make there precious windows somehow inferior more then it already is.... err i mean somehow its some odd completion or something , All you get is it works with wine dont buck the system install windows duel boot.. Most of us just run linux nativly were ok with that we know wine works works well abert not as fast as the windows client with this game. But still very playable. Even if linux accounts for 1.0 percent of the total os installed by arch. say theres 2 billion people on the planet and 1 billion people have computers and 1 percent of 1 billion are linux users thats still quite a lot of people using something that is not ms branded.


CCP does not need to target every distro and not to mention package containers are pretty standard fair Ubuntu can easly unpack a tar.gz Or even rpm. As far as static libs vs dynamic or 32 bit vs 64 bit its moot point linux is fine in running full 32 bit apps in a 64 bit environment without complaint. Beleve it or not if its sold though or downloaded though deseria or even steam for linux Soon to be announced or software center or synaptic the system is intelligent enough to download and or link the approrate lib Independence needed to run it.

Also people saying that theres to many distros and its to fragmented to develop on thats false every major distro conforms to LSB which is linux standard base so if your distro conforms to it No matter which one it is ubuntu mint fedoria so on so forth The underlining structure is identical. Meaning software written for one distro would have no trouble running on another distro. Another thing to note most linux users use ubuntu or a deb deritive some dont but those still conform to standards set by all distros.

so in closing to all the haters. Just because we perfer linux over windows. Or somehow having a linux port will some how diminish your game it wont. The devs that handle clients dont impact what the creative department puts into the game they just make sure it works.
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
#29 - 2012-10-11 03:49:44 UTC
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
hate to say it no matter which game forum you ask the software company you pay money to play there game for a linux client all the windows fanboys come out like somehow them supporting linux is going to make there precious windows somehow inferior more then it already is.... err i mean somehow its some odd completion or something , All you get is it works with wine dont buck the system install windows duel boot.. Most of us just run linux nativly were ok with that we know wine works works well abert not as fast as the windows client with this game. But still very playable. Even if linux accounts for 1.0 percent of the total os installed by arch. say theres 2 billion people on the planet and 1 billion people have computers and 1 percent of 1 billion are linux users thats still quite a lot of people using something that is not ms branded.


CCP does not need to target every distro and not to mention package containers are pretty standard fair Ubuntu can easly unpack a tar.gz Or even rpm. As far as static libs vs dynamic or 32 bit vs 64 bit its moot point linux is fine in running full 32 bit apps in a 64 bit environment without complaint. Beleve it or not if its sold though or downloaded though deseria or even steam for linux Soon to be announced or software center or synaptic the system is intelligent enough to download and or link the approrate lib Independence needed to run it.

Also people saying that theres to many distros and its to fragmented to develop on thats false every major distro conforms to LSB which is linux standard base so if your distro conforms to it No matter which one it is ubuntu mint fedoria so on so forth The underlining structure is identical. Meaning software written for one distro would have no trouble running on another distro. Another thing to note most linux users use ubuntu or a deb deritive some dont but those still conform to standards set by all distros.

so in closing to all the haters. Just because we perfer linux over windows. Or somehow having a linux port will some how diminish your game it wont. The devs that handle clients dont impact what the creative department puts into the game they just make sure it works.


To summarize... Since Linux Standard Base exists, something from Fedora will work on Ubuntu, or Debian, or Mint, or whatever exotic flavor you like. They can all use tar.gz archives, for example. If they developed a Linux port for eve, it would work on 95% of Linux distros.

32 bit or 64 bit does not matter, since 32 bit apps will run just fine under a 64 bit environment. Desktop Environments (GNOME, Unity, etc.) don't matter, they're just the interface, for ease of navigation. Wine still makes the game very playable under Linux, even more so than Cedega.

The irrational belief that having a Linux port will somehow diminish the game is completely ridiculous, if anything it will enhance the game experience. And just because we prefer Linux over Windows does not mean we're doing it wrong, it's a simple matter of preference, although our system is definitely cheaper seeing as it's free.

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Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-10-14 00:14:51 UTC
ill even make it more simpler. You would have an easier time makeing 1 game for linux that would work across 1000 distros flawleslly then it would be to actually make a windows game.

Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#31 - 2012-10-16 03:11:15 UTC
Cray47 wrote:
P.S. Did you know that the same person who designed PulseAudio (bugged every other release - you experience
it when EvE loses audio for exemple) has plans of integrating Gnome into Linux kernel ?


He's an idiot.

Kerono Thalmor wrote:
32 bit or 64 bit does not matter, since 32 bit apps will run just fine under a 64 bit environment..


Get your facts right before you post **** like this.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#32 - 2012-10-16 17:20:08 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:

Kerono Thalmor wrote:
32 bit or 64 bit does not matter, since 32 bit apps will run just fine under a 64 bit environment..

Get your facts right before you post **** like this.


Well i think what he means is:
The x86_64 architecture is fully backwards compatible to x86. All you need is a distribution with multilib support and all the major distributions have that.

So no need for your teenrage, everything is fine, move on.
Daniel Skinner
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
#33 - 2012-10-16 17:27:24 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Cray47 wrote:
P.S. Did you know that the same person who designed PulseAudio (bugged every other release - you experience
it when EvE loses audio for exemple) has plans of integrating Gnome into Linux kernel ?


He's an idiot.

Kerono Thalmor wrote:
32 bit or 64 bit does not matter, since 32 bit apps will run just fine under a 64 bit environment..


Get your facts right before you post **** like this.


His facts are straight, he said to distribute a statically linked binary right before that. End of story, it would run, period. Done. Got it?

Anyway, the main issue here is that there is enough of a difference across distributions that do matter, so don't be so quick to dismiss all of these ill informed posts b/c they're ... well, ill informed posts.

There's a lot of work going on right now with open source drivers (intel), mesa supporting the latest opengl goodness, and so on, that does create a divide as compared to binary blobs as well.

There could be significant work involved for CCP to rework things proper on their end, and I'd love a proper linux client (not a half-***ed one).
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#34 - 2012-10-16 17:29:59 UTC
Kerono Thalmor wrote:

To summarize... Since Linux Standard Base exists, something from Fedora will work on Ubuntu, or Debian, or Mint, or whatever exotic flavor you like. They can all use tar.gz archives, for example. If they developed a Linux port for eve, it would work on 95% of Linux distros.


While i agree with most of the things you say, you realize that LSB actually describes RPM as the standard package manager. So at least 3 out of 4 of the distributions you listed give a **** about that part of the LSB Lol
Daniel Skinner
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
#35 - 2012-10-16 17:54:36 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kerono Thalmor wrote:

To summarize... Since Linux Standard Base exists, something from Fedora will work on Ubuntu, or Debian, or Mint, or whatever exotic flavor you like. They can all use tar.gz archives, for example. If they developed a Linux port for eve, it would work on 95% of Linux distros.


While i agree with most of the things you say, you realize that LSB actually describes RPM as the standard package manager. So at least 3 out of 4 of the distributions you listed give a **** about that part of the LSB Lol


If they put out an archive, I'd maintain the package :) but that's aside the point, one of their devs could learn how to package for debian within a day. Packaging, especially if it was statically compiled, just isn't a big issue.

It really comes down to graphic features used, backwards compatibility, what the linux host supports (changing landscape like I said for implementing new opengl features), etc. None of this is a show stopper, but these are things that should be considered from a developer perspective.

And as far as I've read from everyone, the game is D3D anyway. They may not have even written the game in such a way to make an opengl port trivial.

The only thing I personally can hope for is that they started abstracting all these new effects (like missile trails) to make it easier down the road to do an opengl implementation, but at some point, given the idea that an opengl implementation wasn't on anyones mind, someone is going to have to refactor all the old code which could lead to instabilities across all platforms.

Unless it's something they've been slowly working on here and there, I really doubt this is anything we'll see anytime soon if ever, looking at worst-case scenario. Don't let that stop anyone from being hopeful though :) Valve surprised us all.

And speaking of Valve, it's worth considering that their graphics engine was already done in such a way that it could use D3D or OpenGL, so while they had a short path to get a playable game, their time was mostly spent on optimizing OpenGL calls for the *nix platform.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-10-17 02:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Seras Victoria Egivand
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kerono Thalmor wrote:

To summarize... Since Linux Standard Base exists, something from Fedora will work on Ubuntu, or Debian, or Mint, or whatever exotic flavor you like. They can all use tar.gz archives, for example. If they developed a Linux port for eve, it would work on 95% of Linux distros.


While i agree with most of the things you say, you realize that LSB actually describes RPM as the standard package manager. So at least 3 out of 4 of the distributions you listed give a **** about that part of the LSB Lol




i have done manual extractions of RPM's and installed apps without complaint. Ya it might take a few extra mins but package can be altered. Takes only a little bit to extract and create a deb package or any other package manager were arguing semantics here.

The biggest unseen hurtle may or may not be if they programmed there client opened or closed ended. Most programmers do not program a client to one base. Yes Eve is a direct X game but the actual client itself may be capable of multi api support. Which only ccp knows. If it is Closed ended there will be alot more development time as The client needs to be re written to accept new api inputs. Hence why most games Eg ones you see with mac clients. Those are open ended clients. Meaning The actual client doesn't care which platform its ran on it only needs to know the api it will be running + a new binary client executable,

On another note. Most apps that are written to be generically compressed and extracted are normally done in tar.gz

Weather the installer is bin or .txt or .sh which is just a script anyways is moot sence all distros will be able to execute the said installer with a simple chmod a+x then ./whatever installer name is.

Even If its just a extraction of the folder with sub folders without make files extract folder to home or usr/games where ever you wish to stick said application. extract then make your link to the executable binary run and profit.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-10-17 02:59:46 UTC
Daniel Skinner wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kerono Thalmor wrote:

To summarize... Since Linux Standard Base exists, something from Fedora will work on Ubuntu, or Debian, or Mint, or whatever exotic flavor you like. They can all use tar.gz archives, for example. If they developed a Linux port for eve, it would work on 95% of Linux distros.


While i agree with most of the things you say, you realize that LSB actually describes RPM as the standard package manager. So at least 3 out of 4 of the distributions you listed give a **** about that part of the LSB Lol


If they put out an archive, I'd maintain the package :) but that's aside the point, one of their devs could learn how to package for debian within a day. Packaging, especially if it was statically compiled, just isn't a big issue.

It really comes down to graphic features used, backwards compatibility, what the linux host supports (changing landscape like I said for implementing new opengl features), etc. None of this is a show stopper, but these are things that should be considered from a developer perspective.

And as far as I've read from everyone, the game is D3D anyway. They may not have even written the game in such a way to make an opengl port trivial.

The only thing I personally can hope for is that they started abstracting all these new effects (like missile trails) to make it easier down the road to do an opengl implementation, but at some point, given the idea that an opengl implementation wasn't on anyones mind, someone is going to have to refactor all the old code which could lead to instabilities across all platforms.

Unless it's something they've been slowly working on here and there, I really doubt this is anything we'll see anytime soon if ever, looking at worst-case scenario. Don't let that stop anyone from being hopeful though :) Valve surprised us all.

And speaking of Valve, it's worth considering that their graphics engine was already done in such a way that it could use D3D or OpenGL, so while they had a short path to get a playable game, their time was mostly spent on optimizing OpenGL calls for the *nix platform.



Open GL supports the same features of direct x sence the actual features of the card or said cards are programmed and reprogrammed via pixel shaders.

The difference between the 2 api's is how you call the execution. CCP would need to eather learn Open GL api programming and or higher a OPen gl /AL Programmer to backport the api. As far as actual porting of the base client most of the eve client is built off python.
Daniel Skinner
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
#38 - 2012-10-17 04:07:38 UTC
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:

The difference between the 2 api's is how you call the execution.


Which is the very heart of the matter. Yet something that can be so trivially stated doesn't make the task any more simpler. We can speculate as much as we like, but as far as I can tell, CCP is focusing on improving the gameplay, not investing man hours into (what might be considered) silly abstractions to draw the game in opengl.

It's a tough choice and the call, in my opinion, should have been made a long, long time ago to favor a multi-platform experience. But alas, sometimes people have creative ideas, not technical ideologies for the greater good, and so they build. And that's the end of it.

Just in the same fashion that I wouldn't criticize a modern artist for using a primitive brush where the same strokes could be captured digitally for superior effect, I wont have hate for CCP or criticize for lack of opengl support. But damn, I like this game and it would be nice if either there was an opengl port or vmware would get their act together for workstation 9 and intel video :p
Kuroi Aurgnet
Cry Of Death
Almost Underdogs
#39 - 2012-10-19 05:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuroi Aurgnet
how about this. one of you super smart people who seem know know everything about linux- why dont you work on the linux end, eh? help with development of wine and stuff. i mean, in the end, it already works pretty great on wine, so just play around with making it better. *shrug* there isnt really much you can do apart from what we are doing now. i mean, CCP already has their hands full with DUST, retribution, and other things. there isnt anything we can do other than just hope, or work on the linux end so it better emulates a windows environment. it'd be a lot easier to do that, since you can actually get the source code for all the linux end programs, but i dare you to ask CCP for some of the coding to work on it yourselves.

for the record, im not bashing linux or its users. im a linux nerd too. just being an arse

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-10-19 07:51:22 UTC
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:
how about this. one of you super smart people who seem know know everything about linux- why dont you work on the linux end, eh? help with development of wine and stuff. i mean, in the end, it already works pretty great on wine, so just play around with making it better. *shrug* there isnt really much you can do apart from what we are doing now. i mean, CCP already has their hands full with DUST, retribution, and other things. there isnt anything we can do other than just hope, or work on the linux end so it better emulates a windows environment. it'd be a lot easier to do that, since you can actually get the source code for all the linux end programs, but i dare you to ask CCP for some of the coding to work on it yourselves.

for the record, im not bashing linux or its users. im a linux nerd too. just being an arse



chances of ccp giving us source to there client is slim to 0... as far as fixing bugs in the wine base i have been trying to get cap quarters to work in wine it doesnt seem to be a wine issue but a dll issue with in eve itself so eather we write a ghetto patch to fix it or ccp needs to fix it on there end. Seems in windows the error is just ignored.

on another note Been updating doom 3 and doom 3 Resurrection of evil for linux. So far i have pulse audio support actually working also it will build properly on modern systems without the need of older deprecated libraries im going though now cleaning up deprecated code and adding in native wide screen support directly.

i know thats a little off topic... lol but i always loved doom series anyways back on topic. As far as ccp supporting nix HOPE TO HELL that they decide to drop the ms support do to win 8 + ms market wanting to cut into 30 percent profit. :P
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