These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

NPC combat AI to be upgraded. Your thoughts?

First post
Author
Lord Okinaba
Aliastra
#41 - 2012-09-21 12:00:54 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...

So RIP Drones Ships .
You assume I don't active play my 960 dps Rattlesnake. Or my 1.2k dps Navy Dominix.

I understand and am aware of AFK drone boats being hit by this. But not all drone boats, and not all drone pilots are afk pilots.


First off, I don't believe there are fully AFK Domi pilots out there, unless they're running low level mission with them. Going fully AFK in a L4 isn't feasible, even with the current AI. Semi AFK, maybe.

I actively run run missions in a Navy Domi and find that at the moment I do far too much drone juggling. I dread to think what it will be like after the new AI has been implemented.

Also 1.2k DPS from your Navy Domi? Fit please.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#42 - 2012-09-21 12:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Lord Okinaba wrote:
Also 1.2k DPS from your Navy Domi? Fit please.
Standard 3x DDA, 3x Mag Field(faction), 5x425mms (faction AM, dirt cheap with rail RoF). Shield tanked. 5x Gardes and no need for sentry rigs. Throw on gun and shield implants as needed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#43 - 2012-09-21 13:00:20 UTC
Hav0cide wrote:
Well this will make the 'maze' and a few other 1010's very interesting. Your gonna need a logi to rep the logi. Just means more team work. :)


You know of a logistics ship that can tank the Torp (while probably webbed) in the last room of the Maze? I'd love to see it, that is if it existed at all, which it doesn't.

Plenty of people in the blog comments thread (including myself) have repeatedly warned the DEVs of the potential for this change to utterly break High End DED/Exploration sites.

IMO They either need to damp down the citadel torps in those plexes (or remove them altogether to be replaced by more npc ships or gun-turrets) or keep the npcs/structures that fire the torps under the current AI scheme (where they don't switch aggro at all).

Once they fix the Citadel Torp issue, i have no other concerns. Yea, the change will mean different approaches to high end plexes, maybe even having to "bring friends" to what for the last few years has been basically "solo" content (I do every 10/10 and high end exept the blood raider one by dual boxing Machariel and Tengu). That is basically a nerf, but it's all good, it just means plex loot will be more profitable.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#44 - 2012-09-21 14:35:15 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.



All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)



I'm sure that'll be interesting.

So you're saying we'll have Neuting, Webbing, Scramming all on one ship? From frigates to battleships? Twisted

Where I am.

TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-09-21 16:07:35 UTC
People just simply run 2 tengus with 1 large RR each and deadspace hardeners

That is what you call

Winning

Even after the HML nerf it will put out 450 DPS per ship so 900 DPS in a ded plex aint too bad.

Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2012-09-21 16:57:41 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
People just simply run 2 tengus with 1 large RR each and deadspace hardeners

That is what you call

Winning

Even after the HML nerf it will put out 450 DPS per ship so 900 DPS in a ded plex aint too bad.



Tengus are a challenge to harden for the maze, as the torpedo is EM but you also need substantial kinetic and thermal resists for the rest of the guristas. Once you're up to speed it's not bad, but the first couple minutes while you swat all the web frigates can get hairy.

I'll probably upgrade my Tengus to X-type hardeners. Not like they're in short supply for a maze runner!
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-09-21 17:52:22 UTC
My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2012-09-21 20:38:24 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time


Thing is, it's not really the programmers who are dealing with the NPC AI... it's the content designers, and not even the entire content team. For example, I am working on FW not NPC AI

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#49 - 2012-09-21 22:37:19 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time


NPC AI is more important as you think. If we would be able to use pvp fitts for pve eve would be a much better place

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-09-22 00:07:04 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.



All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)


Is this only a graphic thingy ? Like, no more Rail on a NPC Rattlesnake hull (kind of hilarious i must say) ? Or does that mean also a change in their DPS, Ewar ability, ect ?
stoicfaux
#51 - 2012-09-22 01:32:49 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time


NPC AI is more important as you think. If we would be able to use pvp fitts for pve eve would be a much better place


Never fear, CCP is ...err I mean it's in the works: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688

CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our ultimate goal is that PvP and PvE fits should be the same and a lot of the thought process should be the same. That is... a long way off though.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#52 - 2012-09-22 01:50:04 UTC
This is just a slap in the face for drone users. Anyone that doesnt rely on their drones for DPS isnt gonna notice this change at all. Seriously this has 0 impact on someone not using drones...

Adigard
RubberDuckies
#53 - 2012-09-22 03:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Quote:
Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there.
In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue.


In those ten years you've never attempted Worlds Collide v. Guristas Pirates & Serpentis, right? Because it's fairly common for the Serpentis rats in the first room to drop aggro en-masse and either target your drones mid-fight or continue attacking you while your drones go AFK.

There are a few other circumstances where certain drones (looking at Sentries here) will focus fire on a frigate which they'll never hit, ignoring the larger ships they could easily kill, but that's easily corrected if you're actively paying attention to what your drones are hitting.

Neither situation is terrible... but why add complexity for a single weapon type without doing ANYTHING to make things more enjoyable over-all. The key take away here is that the average high-sec carebear running L4's is probably never going to notice a change because he likely only uses his drones vs. close in web/scram frigates... Assuming he's not in a pimped Tengu which doesn't even use drones.

Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully re-spawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP).

Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat.


Just a minor nit-pick... but how on earth are you farming LP on a mission you turn in once a week? Also, how much travelling are you doing each day to hit those 6 missions? It's not like agents don't offer a lot of scut missions for each one of the worthwhile ones. So apparently you're declining 5-10 missions per agent x 5 agents and repairing your faction by completing one worthwhile mission per agent per week? Or are you chain-completing some of those worthless missions x5 agents until each agent offers you one of a very small and select pool of valuable missions that's actually worth repeating.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#54 - 2012-09-22 05:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Adigard wrote:
In those ten years you've never attempted Worlds Collide v. Guristas Pirates & Serpentis, right? Because it's fairly common for the Serpentis rats in the first room to drop aggro en-masse and either target your drones mid-fight or continue attacking you while your drones go AFK.
My primary mission hub is with Serpentis, and what you are describing has never occurred to me.

Edit: Also, because my fiance asked me to fit a rattlesnake in such a way that would allow near total AFK capability (she's industrial, but needs to plex), I've ran missions so many times on Sisi and live to test fits and what mission waves aggro drones (not all do), that I want to restate that I've still never seen a full room (or even partial) drop of aggro. If this is happening to you, I'd be curious if you're kiting the NPCs out 150k* and triggering their chain which completely resets the NC.

Quote:
Just a minor nit-pick... but how on earth are you farming LP on a mission you turn in once a week? Also, how much travelling are you doing each day to hit those 6 missions? It's not like agents don't offer a lot of scut missions for each one of the worthwhile ones. So apparently you're declining 5-10 missions per agent x 5 agents and repairing your faction by completing one worthwhile mission per agent per week? Or are you chain-completing some of those worthless missions x5 agents until each agent offers you one of a very small and select pool of valuable missions that's actually worth repeating.
I do not have any answers for your questions, I'm afraid. I answered the initial question as a means of showing that quite a few people do farm missions in that manner. However, I only know the answers via proxy. I am not a mission farmer myself (sleeper income).

*The chain distance seems to vary, 150k is not concrete
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#55 - 2012-09-22 06:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
This fixes one of the stupidest mechanics of EVE Online, and has been on my short list of dream fixes since I started playing-

"Tank & DPS" ships. It's hilariously ******** that you drop a tanking ship to a site, and then the rats just keep shooting it, and neglect all the other ships that are actually killing them. Props to CCP for fixing this!

This also means that a PVEr is not automatically worse off in case someone jumps you while running a site. In w-space attackers have to account for the sleepers, which makes it more interesting and challenging to everybody.

As what comes to drones getting aggro, it's a non-issue, especially if it's even milder than in wormholes. I've soloed C 1-3 anoms and sites in drone ships and it's perfectly doable. Yes, you have to be alert, but that's why I play, to have an immersive and involving experience. I've never worried about waiting for aggro before dropping drones, when running k-space plexes in Ishtar I always drop sentries right away, and start one-shotting frigs. By the time the poor rats realize they are getting obliterated and start locking my drones, I've done a lot of damage. Then recall them, drop again.

HP bonused drones don't instapop.

Drones today are very powerful for their raw dps, range, tracking and damage application, this change prevents drones from becoming completely OP compared to other setups in PVE.

.

Lord Leftfield
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-09-22 10:16:00 UTC
In many ways I personally welcome this change. Having trouble staying awake in missions and anomolies these days, this certanly will give it more longviaty. But on the other side, double nerf will sit ill with parts of the community. The rumored missile nerf and now this, a droneboat "nerf". Migth be to much for some Twisted

Life is just a 420 all the way home :) Please give me more of that chocolate brew!!

Hypercake Mix
#57 - 2012-09-22 18:46:47 UTC
Guess I won't be bringing in low-SP friends in their terribad fits into Lv4s while I tank everything in a Rattlesnake, just for giggles.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-09-23 16:21:21 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.



All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)



This is a good thing.


but will you be doing them as supertanky pve fits, or superganky pvp fits :D
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#59 - 2012-09-23 18:08:17 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.


I use drone ships in both wormholes and incursions without losing any.

Glad you did your research before posting.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Allophyl
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#60 - 2012-09-23 23:45:22 UTC
After this change, will sentries be far preferable to heavies, given that sentries can be recalled instantly, while heavies have to MWD directly away from the rats back to your ship, probably getting popped in the process?