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Missions & Complexes

 
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NPC combat AI to be upgraded. Your thoughts?

First post
Author
Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2012-09-20 18:09:23 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others.
And that is the point I can agree on.

I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most.

Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.


I think methods could be implemented to compensate for this, and fits can be altered. Perhaps modules or rigs for large boosts to drone durability and/or MWD speed. (this might even bring about some interesting PvP possibilities)

Realistically, though, the AI needs to change because right now the default AI is absolutely pathetic. It's boring, and boring hurts Eve.

This will definitely make the high end DED complexes more interesting. Any ship on the field is going to have to be able to tank those ridiculous citadel torpedoes. Gurista complexes will be particularly... er, interesting, since their torpedo does EM damage.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-09-20 18:09:25 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others.
And that is the point I can agree on.

I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most.

Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.



Well no I really don't.

Drone pilots already have to deal with aggro. With the exception of missions etc that are a single wave, each additional wave can aggro drones. When drones are your primary DPS this means a lot more than to a non-drone ship. For non-drone ships your drones are generally frig support, so if you have to pull them for a new wave, you can still be applying your turret DPS to other targets.

Drone ships already have to deal with ewar as well. Jamming and damps can limit or remove your ability to control your drones. Sure your drones may still be firing (sometimes) but hitting a trigger early can be worse than not firing at all.

webs and tracking disruptions dont really affect drone ships right now. But in some ways for a turret ship this can be used as a tactic to HELP them. Launch light drones and bounce them around NPC's. You not have a greater chance that those drones will take aggro AWAY from your main ship, pulling the ewar off of you. In this way a turret ship could use cheap T1 drones as "chaff" against ewar.

Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#23 - 2012-09-20 18:14:12 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
text wall
I don't think you're making an effort to understand what it's like for non-drone users, even with my patient attempts. Cheers, I think we're done here.
Ishen Vilone wrote:
Perhaps modules or rigs for large boosts to drone durability and/or MWD speed. (this might even bring about some interesting PvP possibilities)
I agree with most of your content, and thought you might enjoy knowing that the module Drone Navigation Comuputer exists, and with two of them can nearly double the MWD speed of heavy drones (and almost triple medium and light drones).
Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2012-09-20 18:17:36 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:

I agree with most of your content, and thought you might enjoy knowing that the module Drone Navigation Comuputer exists, and with two of them can nearly double the MWD speed of heavy drones (and almost triple medium and light drones).


Yeah, I was thinking larger boosts or even a mod that combines both bonuses. (and rig additions) For example, the drone speed rig is like a 10% bonus... not terribly helpful.
GreenSeed
#25 - 2012-09-20 18:22:35 UTC
horrible changes, really.

i can understand buffing plex ai, but lvl4s? currently lvl4s have crap payouts, crap loot, crap salvage and are boring as hell. yet its the only way to get standing with corps besides midless courrier missions.

the real question is why? why doing it? how does having NPCs swich targets affect people blitzing on machariels or nightmares? no change at all. how does it affect noobs in dominixes? how does it affect a small fleet of noobs doing lvl4s?

it only makes an already crappy and boring "job" even crappier.

we know why they are doing this, its becuse plex farming, so why changing lvl4s? lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed, and any change of this sort only affects newbs and people who arent familiar with the game. so why doing it?

its really beyond me, specially on a game like eve that should at least pretend to be welcoming to new players. if when i started years ago i would have to face one of this new lvl4s flying my trusty old brutix with 1600plates (LOL) and some other newbie from my corp flying a thorax with remote reps i would just call it quits. and yeah, that did happen, and it was fun.

and yeah, if you dont believe me just go to any lvl3 or lvl4 agent and scan some of the 4 month old characters and youll see why this is bad. this game is really complicated already even when facing mindless ai, notions of active tanking, effective reps, resistances vs buffer, speedtank - sigtank, are really hard to explain or see for oneself. if CCP expects newbs to suddenly figure them out while under fire, they are wrong.

let one newb sit on a dual rep dominix playing "tank" while some other dude flyes around in a frigate have their fun please, and buff only the plex ai. this will only make it harder for new players to get into the game. specially now that the "gamers" get into new games in groups of friends irl or from other game, you can see this on any new or old title.

lvl5s are the ones that need a buff in difficulty and a far greater one in payout.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-09-20 18:25:15 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
text wall
I don't think you're making an effort to understand what it's like for non-drone users, even with my patient attempts. Cheers, I think we're done here.


I don't have to make an effort to understand non-drone ships. I fly them as well. In fact I had to pretty much give up my drone ways when I moved into WH life, due to this type of NPC AI. (yes I know the new NPC ai wont be as anti drone as sleepers but stil...)

What I am trying to convey is that it's is inaccurate to portray the scenario that drone ships are somehow immune to NPC ewar effects. But you ignored all of that which I wrote again so I won't repeat it.


Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#27 - 2012-09-20 18:31:16 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed
Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP).

Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#28 - 2012-09-20 18:49:09 UTC
This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.

Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.

Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.

The Renner
Canadian Operations
#29 - 2012-09-20 19:19:40 UTC
So instead of 1 tank 1 dps, it will take 2 tanks to slowly grind down highend nullsec plexes? Should raise prices on deadspace loot I suppose.
Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2012-09-20 19:29:42 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.

Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.

Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.



Screwed? Their missions are being made less boring, as you just said. That's the opposite of being screwed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2012-09-20 19:45:44 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.

Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.

Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.



yep, ccp tempting the Gods of Unintended Consequences yet again lol.
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#32 - 2012-09-20 20:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Melina Lin
Ishen Villone wrote:
Screwed? Their missions are being made less boring, as you just said. That's the opposite of being screwed.


They are not changing the missions, they are as mind numbingly boring as ever. If you on the other hand find buying three new drones exciting...

It'll start to get exciting if NPC battleships would actually do 1000DPS each. Add heavy neuts for good measure and elite frigs which TD and neut you like a Sentinel does.

THAT would get exciting rather quickly.
stoicfaux
#33 - 2012-09-20 21:11:06 UTC
Biggest risk for non-drone boats is losing your light drones to NPC drone hate and getting perma-webbed/scrammed by NPC frigates.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#34 - 2012-09-20 22:08:48 UTC
Losing drones is the same as using ammo for gun/missile users.


If you are using drone boats you will have multiple flights of drones the their drone bays are usually multiple time the size of the bandwidth.

if i'm in my arbi (which I have always loved :) ) running sites in low sec (poor pirate here!) and I lose a drone I don't cry about it I just launch another one and rack it up to 'ammo cost'.

All the ships that use drones as a primary DPS source can field multiple flights of the same drone.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

GreenSeed
#35 - 2012-09-21 03:58:45 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed
Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP).

Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat.

i dont think you have an idea of what the plex exploit is. what you are talking about requires you sitting at the pc and doing something, the plex farm would work while 100% afk.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#36 - 2012-09-21 04:10:46 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed
Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP).

Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat.

i dont think you have an idea of what the plex exploit is. what you are talking about requires you sitting at the pc and doing something, the plex farm would work while 100% afk.
I was misinformed then. Thank you for clarifying.
Bing Khagah
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-09-21 04:37:19 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Using drones is the same as using ammo for gun/missile users.

If you are using drone boats you may have multiple flights of the exact same drone, normally, though, the different flights have different purposes and are therefore not greatly interchangable - a couple of spares of a couple of types though is more probable , bays are usually multiple time the size of the bandwidth.

All the ships that use drones as a primary DPS source can field multiple flights of the same drone - if they give up dynamic response flight setups - who needs gardes when I can have 10 5-drone hobgoblin flights! What?


Fixed.

Taoist Dragon wrote:

if i'm in my arbi (which I have always loved :) ) running sites in low sec (poor pirate here!) and I lose a drone I don't cry about it I just launch another one and rack it up to 'ammo cost'.


Wouldn't it be great if the AI modifications also included NPCs treating all primary weapons system as disposable? Just fit another one and rack it up to 'weapon system cost' Shocked And eh. This'll make things interesting. I do hope pilots decide to willingly sacrifice their ecm/web/etc ohsit saviours.
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2012-09-21 10:29:52 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.



All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)

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Hav0cide
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#39 - 2012-09-21 10:49:53 UTC
Well this will make the 'maze' and a few other 1010's very interesting. Your gonna need a logi to rep the logi. Just means more team work. :)

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#40 - 2012-09-21 10:52:56 UTC
In all honesty it's a huge area that does need adjustments... Even new players can easily handle NPC's behaving smarter, doing mroe dps and tanking better.
Reducing NPC groups to half their numbers with double HP/DPS/Bounty and perhaps even adjust bounty payments to something similar to taking out incursion sites would really enrich EVE for almost everybody.

Pinky