Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Fixing defenders don't necessarily mean, to leave them in the realm of "missiles" in their function. It can also be possible, to rename then to "chaff&flares", that produce a AE-Effect of maybe 1.5km radius who let maybe 30% of all missiles in range die. In this way, the game-mechanic is a "only missiles hitting smartbomb", and smartbombs already exits. For balancing-issues, it can be possible to have 4 different sorts of "defenders". Kinetic, EM, and so on. And each sort of "defenders" can only kill their damage-pendant...

At the last: I don't like the idea to equal everything. Putting missiles in the same mechanic-realm with the turrets is not good in my eyes. Missiles should have nothing to do with tracking-stuff.


The rest of the ideas (making NPCs a little capricious, giving the long-range Missiles noticeable less damage than their shortrange types) is ok for me.

That's easy that would be the ham drake which in no way is a clear cut win in a 1 v 1 for either depending on fit, pilot skill and if that cane pilot actually dares to enter scram range. Do compare them you might be pleasantly surprised by it's stat capabilities.

With TE's and TC's being able to adjust missile performance (in TC's case "on the fly") Torps and Cruise will be godly in PvE where you don't have to worry about PvP specific modules like tackle. Defender missiles will be less of a problem as the EHP of the big dogs is high enough to survive a hit or two (last I heard).

- Unless you run missions for Amarr you have 0.00001% chance of running into a TD in a mission, they are as far as I know exclusively used by Sansha.
- AI improvement will have zero impact on your day to day operations unless you, contrary to the norm, have a wingman with you on site. Actually, scratch that, it will have an impact: Loot/Salvage ninjas will now have a chance to get shot by NPCs even if they are all focused on you when they enter .. where are the ninja whiners at, don't they realise that CCP is about to nerf their playstyle?

PS: Stop the Thief is the mercs where spawn begins after nuking the nearby BS, right?

5-6 minutes in a Beam Paladin .. never had issues with scrambling frigs, by all means let them come, I have a 90% web waiting for them as well as a light drone flight.

Don't be afraid to have them actually scramble you, once they are close your drones will be as safe as can be, besides CCP has stated that it is not sleeper AI so drones are not priority targets.

Ok, my thoughts on the issue, not that anyone cares.

Range nerf? Yes.

Damage nerf? Too far.

Bump the range nerf up to 60%-70%, remove Precision HML's and add Javelin HML's that increase the range back to 60-70kms.

Keep the decent damage to 40km's, with reduced damage out to 80km's.



Your changes will just make the HML worthless for PVP. Add to that the Drake changes you've hinted at, and I think your sending the Drake back to what it used to be. The 'LOLDrake'.

Dear CPP Fozzie

Feedback on the proposed changes

HML range and dps nerf -

The numbers speak for themselves and show this brings HMLs in line with the other top-tier med long range weapons, and therefore is surely correct. I note that on the caldari missle ships rebalanced so far, in each case the kinetic-only bonus has been replaced with an all damage bonus. I would be surprised if this wasnt done for the larger ships too, in time. This coupled with the introduction of missle-affecting TEs/TCs means missles (especially HAMs, precision HMLs, rockets and (precision) cruise missles) may still be overpowered and need their base explosion velocity and sig radius decreased otherwise they may become too brutal at killing small ships. Time will tell but I'm happy for now.

Medium long range weapons
There is a wider issue that I hope CCP will also address here - none of the long range medium guns are really viable enough on a medium platform. I think this needs to be addressed in ship balancing. The basic issue is that its very hard to give a ship bonuses that make it an excellent long range ship without making it even better as a short-medium range ship. Currently its not worth the huge tradeoffs of long range medium sized guns (who uses Heavy Beams, seriously) and this is not simply a factor of their fitting cost (though those changes will help).
I think a possible solution is embracing the idea of ship bonuses that look something like this:
Bonus 1 - whatever
Bonus 2 - +15-20% range per level of X
Malus 1 - -10% tracking (or explosion velocity) per level of X
i.e. a very overpowered bonus that is targetted at long range platforms, together with a malus which makes it less useful on a short range platform. This could also be applied to the new HMLs.

At one time in eve there was a "minimum flight distance" attribute to long range missles, that meant if you got close enough to a missle ship they couldnt do damage. No idea where I'm going with this but something to think about.

Caldari Missle Ships that use HMLs
I'm confident that with HMLs adjusted, Cerberus, Nighthawk etc will be boosted in due course when their classes get reviewed. The caracal looks fine on paper. Drake and Tengu will still be good, especially with interesting TE/TC fits designed to snipe small ships.

Tracking Disruptors
I'm amarr-only with 120m skillpoints and obviously maxed out in TDs. I love the curse and pilgrim and sentinal. That said, the changes have a strong potential to be overpowered. CCP should resist this, and also the urge to nerf them to uselessness. I think the best solution is to lower the base values of the TD maluses, and increase the bonus on the specialised ships to compensate. Theres nothing wrong with a curse being a thing of fear on the smallgang battlefield - a falcon already is and gallente and minmatar recons are a guarantee you are not going to escape.
This could be coupled with seperate scripts for each of the effects, which would encourage player skill to switch at the right time and prepare for each target.

What I would be against is different modules for missles vs guns. None of the TD ships have enough midslots to take advantage of this and its not needed with the changes listed above


On the the discussion in this thread

110 pages of very, very few people actually engaging with what CCP Fozzie actually said in a constructive way. Many people don't even seem to have noticed the very detailed reply he gave around page 70. Either that or they don't care about logic or balancing.

Some of us have been playing Eve long enough to remember the last lot of missle changes (in that case, slight damage,range etc nerf and the introduction of all the missle skills which brought all such factors, at level 5, above where they started) , which, like these, were also a mixed bag of nerfs and bonuses. Hundreds or even thousands of players threatened to quit then too.

Then, as now, the issue is not that the changes are rushed, that they are too strong, or that they are unfair. The issue is that there is a section of the gaming populace who fly one ship with one setup, day in day out, to run missions, or fight sleepers, or some other form of PvE, who will not under any circumstances accept a nerf to their ship, playstyle or income. They wont even accept a neutral change. Its not surprise at all that the people in this thread who are so adamantly agains the changes are not willing to discuss the numbers, or do so only falliciously (comparing HMLs to short range weapons for example). Threatening to quit over logically justified and AS YET UNFINALISED changes is the act of a small child tossing his toys from the pram.

This has happened so many times now in the history of eve. I hope, and am confident, that CCP will ignore the whiners, ride out the small number of sub cancellations (if any, its usually idle threats), and go on with some form of changes, taking into account the real feedback.

No, they make HML worthless for short range PvP where it cant dictate range. As a long range platform should be.

Please can you engage with the figures, which have been posted many times in this thread, that show that post nerf HMLs are still BY FAR the highest DPS of the long range medium weapons.

The changes you suggest take HMLs completely out of the light-heavy-cruise line and make them a sort of "super HML". You need to remember that HMLs are NOT supposed to be a short range weapon. In theory HMLs should be lower dmg than long range guns because nothing can "get under their tracking" through pilotting but I accept this wouldnt go down well with the very vocal drake/tengu hoardes.

you are missing a few things:
1. long range medium turrets are not exactly popular to begin with. if you nerf HMLs down to their level, they will just become equally useless. that's like killing your neighbor's wife because your own wife is an ugly *****.
2. you don't need piloting skills to mitigate missile damage. just be small and fast, that's it.
3. drakes have not been able to dictate range since... well... ever.
4. arguing paper dps is stupid. it's applied dps that matters and the average applied dps of heavy missiles is arguably worse than at least beams and arty and will be even more so after the frigate and cruiser buffs.

You are quitting over a 4 month skillset.

In 4.5 years and TWO accounts you never trained anything beyond a Drake?

So the gist of you post is missions, must think, quit......over level 4s....lol

Yes and no. Yes, the medium guns are not popular, but this is a problem with the platforms NOT the guns themselves. The DPS output, range and tracking is balances as against short range guns. The issue is the long range platforms are completely outclassed by tier3 BCs. Boosting the long range cruisers is the correct balancing step - and one I'm sure CCP will take when they get to tech2 cruisers.

Exactly. With guns you can be "small and fast" OR use pilotting skill. Missles have a big advantage AND don't fully "miss" so can still force (for example) a tackling inty off the field even with anemic damage.

Yes they have. MWD Drake blobs kite all the time. They cant 'absolutely' dictate range against a focussed, faster opponent but they dont need to - they sit at 100km and noone approaches them. "Dictating Range" in a fleet fight IS NOT the same as dictating it in a 1v1. In a fleet fight warping and warping back in is a form of dictating range. IF a drake blob engages MWD on mass and moves away, theres not many short range platforms (if any) that can both keep in range of the majority of the blob (they might web and pick off one or two), and keep enough Cap to have a reasonable chance of actually beating the drakes.

"Arguing on paper is stupid, therefore I'll just shoot my mouth off based on my gut feeling (and did I mention I only fly drakes and Tengus so I'm not at all biased) and not produce ANY evidence"

If HMLs are arguably worse than beams and arty, howecome drakes and tengus are the most popular ships? Both the usage statistics AND the paper figures back up the belief that HMLs are OP. Cerbs and Nighthawks are underpowered, but will be addressed when CCP gets to tech 2 ships next year. barely anyone flies them atm so its hardly a disaster to have to wait.

You are also wrong about applied dps. In current fleet warfare, the 10 second (max) delay before missle dps is applied is meaningless, and there is no damage mitigation against the equal sized targets you normally see in fleets.

lol, how much damage do they do to a target at 100k?