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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2161 - 2012-09-21 01:18:35 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Guys, I hate to tell you this but Fozzie has stopped reading this thread knowing that it was going to be a hot topic. His mind is already made up and he will not be persuaded until he makes the changes he proposed. This will be the second and probably the final nerf to missiles as this will cause most people to come to the conclusion that the flight time and the applied damage to targets will be sub-par with this weapon system.

It is interesting to note that a lot of EVE users have trained into missiles and when this nerf does come to fruition, many will be frustrated with all the time they invested into that weapon system only to see it broken.

For those players that use missiles as thier only weapon system, they will have to sink another 2-3 months into another weapon platform and possibly longer to train into a different ship to be viable again. For that person, that 2-3 months will seem like an eternity and they just might say forget it, I'm done.

I've seen this behavior with game developers before with many MMO's that eventually lost its player base due to its inabilty to listen to its players or correct its changes fast enough. Sadly by the time the game company realizes it, its always too late as they will never get those players back. Ever. I foresee some fallout from this as we all know from history that once CCP goes through with its intended plan, it never goes back. Only time will tell how big or how much of an impact this will have.

What a cynical load of crying crap and rumor mongering. You don't know anything of the kind. Fozzie is new at CCP and doing a lot of responding on the forums, and keeping what appear to be long hours as well <3

And you are overstating the effects that the nerf at whatever percentages it ends up at will have. You simply don't know that these changes will make HMLs worthless.

So you should stfu before you get banned.


He can't get banned for what he said...and he's probably going to be right....I've already stopped missile training on my missile toon....problem is I'm gallente and caldari on him....so i might have to cross train into minmatar on him. At least this guy was only cross training caldari for leadership purposes.
Lili Lu
#2162 - 2012-09-21 01:30:09 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
He can't get banned for what he said...and he's probably going to be right....I've already stopped missile training on my missile toon....problem is I'm gallente and caldari on him....so i might have to cross train into minmatar on him. At least this guy was only cross training caldari for leadership purposes.

Oh, a tech III off-grid booster? That doesn't sound like much fun. Especially since that is going to get nerfed as well.

FOTM chasing will get you every time.

As for the fellow's quote,

"Guys, I hate to tell you this but Fozzie has stopped reading this thread knowing that it was going to be a hot topic. His mind is already made up and he will not be persuaded until he makes the changes he proposed."

I don't see any subjuctive or conditional use in those sentences. He can suspect it. And he'll likely be proven wrong. But that seems like a straightforward declarative statement made without any knowledge of the fact. Gotta be careful about that.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2163 - 2012-09-21 01:30:32 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Guys, I hate to tell you this but Fozzie has stopped reading this thread knowing that it was going to be a hot topic. His mind is already made up and he will not be persuaded until he makes the changes he proposed. This will be the second and probably the final nerf to missiles as this will cause most people to come to the conclusion that the flight time and the applied damage to targets will be sub-par with this weapon system.

It is interesting to note that a lot of EVE users have trained into missiles and when this nerf does come to fruition, many will be frustrated with all the time they invested into that weapon system only to see it broken.

For those players that use missiles as thier only weapon system, they will have to sink another 2-3 months into another weapon platform and possibly longer to train into a different ship to be viable again. For that person, that 2-3 months will seem like an eternity and they just might say forget it, I'm done.

I've seen this behavior with game developers before with many MMO's that eventually lost its player base due to its inabilty to listen to its players or correct its changes fast enough. Sadly by the time the game company realizes it, its always too late as they will never get those players back. Ever. I foresee some fallout from this as we all know from history that once CCP goes through with its intended plan, it never goes back. Only time will tell how big or how much of an impact this will have.

What a cynical load of crying crap and rumor mongering. You don't know anything of the kind. Fozzie is new at CCP and doing a lot of responding on the forums, and keeping what appear to be long hours as well <3

Maybe all you are reading is this thread because your so butthurt that your only weapon system (the only one you've probably ever needed) is getting nerfed. But Fozzie is responding in lots of threads. For someone who has only been playing the game 13 months you sure seem to think you know a lot.

And you are overstating the effects that the nerf at whatever percentages it ends up at will have. You simply don't know that these changes will make HMLs worthless.

So you should stfu before you get banned.

Read this https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1942484#post1942484 and don't post crap like you just did.


Threatening somebody with a ban like you're an ISD is more likely to get you banned than what he posted.
Lili Lu
#2164 - 2012-09-21 01:32:48 UTC
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
Threatening somebody with a ban like you're an ISD is more likely to get you banned than what he posted.

Did I say I would ban him?
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2165 - 2012-09-21 01:44:30 UTC
OMG going to page 110! Did someone got an chivement (or in game medal?) for publishing something so polemic?

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#2166 - 2012-09-21 01:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
Unless TD is broken into two groups like missiles and turrets modules. TD will become the new ECM. And Unlike ECM, TD is single module that affects all ships with just a change of a script. ECM requires the use of racials and fitting beforehand to be truly effective, otherwise you'll be betting on luck to get your jams off using weak or wrong jammers.

TD however is a 100% guaranteed crippling on every conceivable type of dps ship in the game(except lulz drones)

Anyone can clearly see that TD will become a new God module, and this is coming for a Curse Pilot.

TD needs to have two different types. One for Missiles and one for Turrets. Therefore the pilot will have to choose between either missiles or turrets, rather than just fit one and win.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2167 - 2012-09-21 02:05:31 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Max Devious wrote:
I just have one small comment here. This change in missile range may see it's most profound effect on small Wormhole corps. Many sites that can now be completed by a solo Tengu will become impossible to complete solo due to the inablilty to kite the neuts at range. The solution is to spyder tank with energy transfers, but many small corps don't have enough people online at the same time to do much of this, and some of these corps will be forced out of Wspace.

Max.


Seems like a good thing tbh, whs are not meant to be solo paradises ....


It's not.. but just like you can run an L4 solo.. You should be able to run certain sites in a WH solo.


You mean in C3 plus that ccp designed to be multiplayer like lvl 5s? cos C1 and C2 you sure don't need a tengu for.



Sure.. if you want to spend 4 times longer doing them with no guarantee of a payout.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2168 - 2012-09-21 02:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, I do kind of ignore points that don't really address my questions.

You mean like medium artillery and medium beams? Seen those used on Cynabals, Hurricanes, Munnins and Zealots.

Two tech two ships and one tech one ship using medium arties? Considering they're the best of the M-LR turrets and even throwing in the arty Sleipnir (which I didn't even know anybody used until this thread), that's still hardly more than a niche use. And I've never, ever seen anybody use Zealots with beams.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Also know I have said mediums rails need serious love since the beginning of this thread and have been for years now.

Well good, we agree on something.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2169 - 2012-09-21 02:11:07 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:

TD needs to have two different types. One for Missiles and one for Turrets. Therefore the pilot will have to choose between either missiles or turrets, rather than just fit one and win.

Which is a solution CCP Fozzie has already stated they are considering. Here's hoping the answer is yes.
Doddy
Excidium.
#2170 - 2012-09-21 02:18:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, I do kind of ignore points that don't really address my questions.

You mean like medium artillery and medium beams? Seen those used on Cynabals, Hurricanes, Munnins and Zealots.

Two tech two ships and one tech one ship using medium arties? Considering they're the best of the M-LR turrets and even throwing in the arty Sleipnir (which I didn't even know anybody used until this thread), that's still hardly more than a niche use. And I've never, ever seen anybody use Zealots with beams.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Also know I have said mediums rails need serious love since the beginning of this thread and have been for years now.

Well good, we agree on something.


People not using medium LR turrets is less to do with thier suckiness and more to do with how eve combat has evolved. Sniper hacs using medium LR turrets were default win mode for a long time. now with instant on grid warp ins, buffer fits and mass logis sniper tactics have gone the way of the dodo with the sole exception of 1400 artys using alpha. other than that the iting side of warfare moved entirely into heavy missiles (drakes then tengus) which could do far more dps and fit more tank at the now ironically safer mid range (too cose fo rthe enemy to warp on you).
Doddy
Excidium.
#2171 - 2012-09-21 02:21:03 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Max Devious wrote:
I just have one small comment here. This change in missile range may see it's most profound effect on small Wormhole corps. Many sites that can now be completed by a solo Tengu will become impossible to complete solo due to the inablilty to kite the neuts at range. The solution is to spyder tank with energy transfers, but many small corps don't have enough people online at the same time to do much of this, and some of these corps will be forced out of Wspace.

Max.


Seems like a good thing tbh, whs are not meant to be solo paradises ....


It's not.. but just like you can run an L4 solo.. You should be able to run certain sites in a WH solo.


You mean in C3 plus that ccp designed to be multiplayer like lvl 5s? cos C1 and C2 you sure don't need a tengu for.



Sure.. if you want to spend 4 times longer doing them with no guarantee of a payout.


How can you even think that is an argument? They shouldn't be nerfed because they make way more isk than anything else?
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2172 - 2012-09-21 02:37:23 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Soko99 wrote:

Sure.. if you want to spend 4 times longer doing them with no guarantee of a payout.


How can you even think that is an argument? They shouldn't be nerfed because they make way more isk than anything else?

I'm quite sure machs running incursions make way more. And the argument was a counter saying they aren't needed for c2s. And I'm saying they are if you don't want to spend crazy long time running them while vulnerable to anything since you have know warning other than dscan.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#2173 - 2012-09-21 02:54:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:

TD needs to have two different types. One for Missiles and one for Turrets. Therefore the pilot will have to choose between either missiles or turrets, rather than just fit one and win.

Which is a solution CCP Fozzie has already stated they are considering. Here's hoping the answer is yes.

I still can't understand why anyone would hope to argue that missile ships still need to be special snowflakes and have a separate TD module. Do I cry when my gang solely consisting of turret users gets TD'd because there's not special TD modules for laser, hybrid, projectile?!
Everyone needs to drop this guise that missile systems need to be kept in a walled garden where no one can go. There's no substantive reason why TDs need a separate module, especially considering TEs and TCs are going to affect positive bonuses on missile systems.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2174 - 2012-09-21 03:04:47 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:

TD needs to have two different types. One for Missiles and one for Turrets. Therefore the pilot will have to choose between either missiles or turrets, rather than just fit one and win.

Which is a solution CCP Fozzie has already stated they are considering. Here's hoping the answer is yes.

I still can't understand why anyone would hope to argue that missile ships still need to be special snowflakes and have a separate TD module. Do I cry when my gang solely consisting of turret users gets TD'd because there's not special TD modules for laser, hybrid, projectile?!
Everyone needs to drop this guise that missile systems need to be kept in a walled garden where no one can go. There's no substantive reason why TDs need a separate module, especially considering TEs and TCs are going to affect positive bonuses on missile systems.

Yes there is a substantive reason. It's called "balance".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2175 - 2012-09-21 03:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ark Anhammar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:

TD needs to have two different types. One for Missiles and one for Turrets. Therefore the pilot will have to choose between either missiles or turrets, rather than just fit one and win.

Which is a solution CCP Fozzie has already stated they are considering. Here's hoping the answer is yes.

I still can't understand why anyone would hope to argue that missile ships still need to be special snowflakes and have a separate TD module. Do I cry when my gang solely consisting of turret users gets TD'd because there's not special TD modules for laser, hybrid, projectile?!
Everyone needs to drop this guise that missile systems need to be kept in a walled garden where no one can go. There's no substantive reason why TDs need a separate module, especially considering TEs and TCs are going to affect positive bonuses on missile systems.

Missile systems, so long as they retain their current mechanics are in a walled garden all their own. I'm not sure why you are pretending this isn't the case. And we have a module that already has a similar mechanic for selective effectiveness in ECM. This isn't as much a special snowflake situation as you are painting it to be.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2176 - 2012-09-21 03:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Lili Lu wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
He can't get banned for what he said...and he's probably going to be right....I've already stopped missile training on my missile toon....problem is I'm gallente and caldari on him....so i might have to cross train into minmatar on him. At least this guy was only cross training caldari for leadership purposes.

Oh, a tech III off-grid booster? That doesn't sound like much fun. Especially since that is going to get nerfed as well.

FOTM chasing will get you every time.

As for the fellow's quote,

"Guys, I hate to tell you this but Fozzie has stopped reading this thread knowing that it was going to be a hot topic. His mind is already made up and he will not be persuaded until he makes the changes he proposed."

I don't see any subjuctive or conditional use in those sentences. He can suspect it. And he'll likely be proven wrong. But that seems like a straightforward declarative statement made without any knowledge of the fact. Gotta be careful about that.


lol....you can use any declarative statement you like within reason.....to even say that his statement could possibly get him banned means either a) you are just a troll or b) english is not your first language and you don't understand what he said...

Either way, if he got banned for THAT, psh....you'll see the Eve population thin out very quickly....how about the uproar of people calling the dev's selfish morons over the UI change?

Edit: and in re-reading your post and your excessive usage of big words in slighly debatable context....I'm going with the latter

And I agree...they should complete remove boosting....on-grid boosting isn't going to change anything except people saying screw it and forget it all together.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#2177 - 2012-09-21 03:21:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes there is a substantive reason. It's called "balance".

"Balance" as in my friends who fly Legions and Loki in gangs have to put up with the same TD as a Proteus does? Or is it "balance" in that "I need special modules made *juuuuust* for my missile ship"? That kind of balance? Yeah, that's really balanced.

And everyone saying that TDs "need to be balanced" by having different modules: TDs are currently NOT balanced in that they don't affect missiles at all. Having them affect missile launchers, and giving missile launchers a way to combat TDs with allowing TCs and TEs to affect them *IS* balancing them. Get over yourselves and learn to deal with the same problems the rest of us have had to deal with since we started playing.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2178 - 2012-09-21 03:26:34 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes there is a substantive reason. It's called "balance".

"Balance" as in my friends who fly Legions and Loki in gangs have to put up with the same TD as a Proteus does? Or is it "balance" in that "I need special modules made *juuuuust* for my missile ship"? That kind of balance? Yeah, that's really balanced.

And everyone saying that TDs "need to be balanced" by having different modules: TDs are currently NOT balanced in that they don't affect missiles at all. Having them affect missile launchers, and giving missile launchers a way to combat TDs with allowing TCs and TEs to affect them *IS* balancing them. Get over yourselves and learn to deal with the same problems the rest of us have had to deal with since we started playing.


Then just need to revamp missile mechanics to be in line with guns. That will solve everything.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2179 - 2012-09-21 03:36:13 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes there is a substantive reason. It's called "balance".

"Balance" as in my friends who fly Legions and Loki in gangs have to put up with the same TD as a Proteus does? Or is it "balance" in that "I need special modules made *juuuuust* for my missile ship"? That kind of balance? Yeah, that's really balanced.

And everyone saying that TDs "need to be balanced" by having different modules: TDs are currently NOT balanced in that they don't affect missiles at all. Having them affect missile launchers, and giving missile launchers a way to combat TDs with allowing TCs and TEs to affect them *IS* balancing them. Get over yourselves and learn to deal with the same problems the rest of us have had to deal with since we started playing.

So in other words, you want a single module that works on disrupting the weapons systems of every single ship.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#2180 - 2012-09-21 03:40:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ark Anhammar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yes there is a substantive reason. It's called "balance".

"Balance" as in my friends who fly Legions and Loki in gangs have to put up with the same TD as a Proteus does? Or is it "balance" in that "I need special modules made *juuuuust* for my missile ship"? That kind of balance? Yeah, that's really balanced.

And everyone saying that TDs "need to be balanced" by having different modules: TDs are currently NOT balanced in that they don't affect missiles at all. Having them affect missile launchers, and giving missile launchers a way to combat TDs with allowing TCs and TEs to affect them *IS* balancing them. Get over yourselves and learn to deal with the same problems the rest of us have had to deal with since we started playing.

So in other words, you want a single module that works on disrupting the weapons systems of every single ship.


That's probably what he wants. As I pilot that flies a curse and uses TD, having such a thing would be overpowered for a single module. It needs to be like how ECM have racial types and the weakass multispec.