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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Max Devious
X-M.MagnetS
#2101 - 2012-09-20 21:42:47 UTC
I just have one small comment here. This change in missile range may see it's most profound effect on small Wormhole corps. Many sites that can now be completed by a solo Tengu will become impossible to complete solo due to the inablilty to kite the neuts at range. The solution is to spyder tank with energy transfers, but many small corps don't have enough people online at the same time to do much of this, and some of these corps will be forced out of Wspace.

Max.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2102 - 2012-09-20 21:45:28 UTC
Mograine Gastoves wrote:
... die in fire, L4 PVE Tengu is useless now!



No its not.. just means an extra volley to kill things and can still hit out at over 90km with the right subs.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2103 - 2012-09-20 21:52:15 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • The damage per second of heavy missile ships like the Drake seems low, why are you making it even lower?
    • I believe the main source of disagreement here comes from comparisons between Heavy Missiles (a long range weapon platform) and short range weapons like autocannons or blasters. Once upon a time Heavy Missiles were the only medium missile system, and therefore shared features from both close range and long range weapons. Later Heavy Assault Missiles were introduced and were quite good, but Heavy Missiles still overshadowed them since they did similar damage at close range and HMs had the advantage of steller long range performance. There are legitimate problems with many long range weapon systems at the medium size, but the fact that people have gotten used to comparing Heavy Missiles with short range guns should be taken as one of the signs that Heavies are far too good.

So if there is a move to nerf long range, are there plans to buff Caldari mobility so that they can operate at shorter ranges?

Caldari ships tend to be the slowest and least agile, which is okay when you are a sniping platform, but not when you have to be in closer.


You don't have to, fit a TE


Which reduces the caldari mobility even more, since you are dropping nanofibers to fit it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2104 - 2012-09-20 21:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Link to OP :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

Because a lot of people here really need to read it before posting.

Infact, these changes are a BUFF to short range missiles, grace to TE/TC. TD will certainly become more common, but you can counter then with TC/TE, and with TP in some way, all modules much more useful in any situation than ECCM. Eventually, TD will be nerfed if they need to.

HML are nerfed, but they really needed to : they are currently better than cruise missiles ! They are better than any medium long range weapon and the drake even compete with close range brawlers ! And yet, with the TE/TC buff, dammage application will be greater : dps nerf, considering this, is not always 20%.

And I don't even talk about the insane T2 ammo buff missiles needed.

PS : TC are MED slot, not competing with damage or speed modules but with tank modules for shield tankers. Think to this.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2105 - 2012-09-20 21:56:20 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
TD will certainly become more common, but you can counter then with TC/TE

Scripted TD overpowers TC/TE. Everyone and their uncle are going to start fitting TD.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Boy am I going to be smug when we're still not going to see an increase in use of medium beams, arty, or rails.

Whatever logic apparently dictates to you that people will somehow magically start using these more is flawed. They're bad weapons systems and they need to be buffed. Part of the reason HMLs look so ******* amazing is, yes they're OP, but that's in combination with the fact that the medium LR turrets are just so terrible.

What needs to be done is this:
A gentler nerf to HMs (same range nerf plus 5-10% damage reduction) plus a slight to moderate buff of medium LRs (say, increased ROF on all three plus decreased cap use on rails and beams to compensate). At the same time, switch the fitting requirements of HMs and HAMs. HAMs should be easier to fit than HMs. Also buff HAM explosion velocity and radius slightly.

For next page visibility.


I forgot to mention: split missile and turret disruption into two separate modules. Having one tracking disruptor work on both turrets and missiles is extremely overpowered.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
None ofthe Above
#2106 - 2012-09-20 21:58:14 UTC
MIrple wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
The HM nerf has been much needed for a long time. For all those crying over it, let's put this in perspective:

1) A Harbinger with Heavy beam laser II's using IN MF does 318 dps at 15km + 10km falloff (25km total).

2) A Hurricane with 720mm Howitzer II's using RF PP does 290 dps at 15km + 22km falloff (27km total).

3) A Brutix with 250mm railgun II's using CN antimatter does 302 dps at 18km + 15km falloff (28km total).

4) A drake with HML II's using CN scourge does 250 dps at 84.4km.

Now tell me which one of these isn't even remotely like the rest. All of these numbers are at lvl5 skills without any other mods/drones fitted and without implants. This is just the base damage on a typical damage/RoF bonused ship. Toss in the fitting requirements of these various mods and things skew more heavily in favor of HM's than they do in the above example.


They are not supposed to be "like the rest", missiles are a very different system, with advantages and disadvantages over the other types.

Assuming your numbers are correct (and they seem about right), lowest (and delayed) DPS for highest range and flexibility is what in most circles is called BALANCE.

I could perhaps understand an adjustment, but this proposed heavy triple-nerf seems over the top and I hope gets reconsidered and toned down, before they "balance" away an entire class of ships into obsolescence.


I understand what you are saying here but If you look at the caracal with the new rebalance of that ship and with the changes proposed to HM it works out very well. I think they need to try and push up balancing BC this round if they want this to go through as It will really hamstring the Drake until it can be properly balanced.

Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.

See how this works out nicely with the changes.

Thats the way to go!


Oh... yay.

Already anemic Caracal gets almost as much DPS by using one more damage mod.

...the Caldari are saved. Roll

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2107 - 2012-09-20 22:07:01 UTC
People are still forgetting...it's not the DPS that draws everyone to these two ships....it's the fact that you can get a better tank....I know several pilots cross-trained and they all say the same thing....the DPS on the drake blows, but I can get a good tank out of it. Proteus pilots, especially, I've heard several times of just getting out by the skin of their teeth in lvl 4's because the tank mechanics are more difficult.

But let's disregard this....let's nerf the HM's...then they'll nerf the tanks on the tengu and the drake....then they'll finally fix the warfare link bonus on T3's so that T2 command ships are more beneficial again....

And then you won't see a single Tengu out there....
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2108 - 2012-09-20 22:10:53 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Link to OP :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

Because a lot of people here really need to read it before posting.

Infact, these changes are a BUFF to short range missiles, grace to TE/TC. TD will certainly become more common, but you can counter then with TC/TE, and with TP in some way, all modules much more useful in any situation than ECCM. Eventually, TD will be nerfed if they need to.

HML are nerfed, but they really needed to : they are currently better than cruise missiles ! They are better than any medium long range weapon and the drake even compete with close range brawlers ! And yet, with the TE/TC buff, dammage application will be greater : dps nerf, considering this, is not always 20%.

And I don't even talk about the insane T2 ammo buff missiles needed.

PS : TC are MED slot, not competing with damage or speed modules but with tank modules for shield tankers. Think to this.



You can only call something a buff if it doesn't require you to give up things to be able to get the it. So youre choices will be give up the BCU's for the TEs or give up tank or mobility for TCs and the script. Not exactly helpful for caldari ships that are pretty slow.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2109 - 2012-09-20 22:11:56 UTC
You guys are impossible. All you care about is your precious 'do everything' Drake.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2110 - 2012-09-20 22:12:33 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys are impossible. All you care about is your precious 'do everything' Drake.



ROFL. NIce troll..
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2111 - 2012-09-20 22:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cage Man
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Link to OP :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

Because a lot of people here really need to read it before posting.

Infact, these changes are a BUFF to short range missiles, grace to TE/TC. TD will certainly become more common, but you can counter then with TC/TE, and with TP in some way, all modules much more useful in any situation than ECCM. Eventually, TD will be nerfed if they need to.

HML are nerfed, but they really needed to : they are currently better than cruise missiles ! They are better than any medium long range weapon and the drake even compete with close range brawlers ! And yet, with the TE/TC buff, dammage application will be greater : dps nerf, considering this, is not always 20%.

And I don't even talk about the insane T2 ammo buff missiles needed.

PS : TC are MED slot, not competing with damage or speed modules but with tank modules for shield tankers. Think to this.


You comparing a medium weapon to a large weapon system, which clearly you haven't tried. Cruise missiles will pop BS MUCH faster than HML. The only time the HML is doing better than the cruise missile is for frigs and faster cruisers. But guess what... mega pulse have the same comparison to heavy pulses.. except of course if you hit the frig at range with a turret ship not matter what size it will POP.. missiles are not going to do that.. but that is a different discussion Blink
None ofthe Above
#2112 - 2012-09-20 22:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
People are still forgetting...it's not the DPS that draws everyone to these two ships....it's the fact that you can get a better tank....I know several pilots cross-trained and they all say the same thing....the DPS on the drake blows, but I can get a good tank out of it. Proteus pilots, especially, I've heard several times of just getting out by the skin of their teeth in lvl 4's because the tank mechanics are more difficult.

But let's disregard this....let's nerf the HM's...then they'll nerf the tanks on the tengu and the drake....then they'll finally fix the warfare link bonus on T3's so that T2 command ships are more beneficial again....

And then you won't see a single Tengu out there....


The DPS on the Drake is just barely good enough. I've rarely heard anyone brag about the DPS of a drake, and when I have it's in relationship to other Drakes.

With the tank, the range flexibility and copious mid-slots (although I always seem to want more), it balances out to a nice enough ship to use. Nerf the DPS and then I am not so sure.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#2113 - 2012-09-20 22:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys are impossible. All you care about is your precious 'do everything' Drake.


Show me on the Thorax where the Drake touched you...

EDIT: Its really more about the do SOMETHING Drake (and Tengu). One of the few Caldari ships worthy of respect.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2114 - 2012-09-20 22:17:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys are impossible. All you care about is your precious 'do everything' Drake.

"I've given up trying to argue substance. Nerf all the things!"

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2115 - 2012-09-20 22:24:49 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
People are still forgetting...it's not the DPS that draws everyone to these two ships....it's the fact that you can get a better tank....I know several pilots cross-trained and they all say the same thing....the DPS on the drake blows, but I can get a good tank out of it. Proteus pilots, especially, I've heard several times of just getting out by the skin of their teeth in lvl 4's because the tank mechanics are more difficult.

But let's disregard this....let's nerf the HM's...then they'll nerf the tanks on the tengu and the drake....then they'll finally fix the warfare link bonus on T3's so that T2 command ships are more beneficial again....

And then you won't see a single Tengu out there....


The DPS on the Drake is just barely good enough. I've rarely heard anyone brag about the DPS of a drake, and when I have it's in relationship to other Drakes.

With the tank, the range flexibility and copious mid-slots (although I always seem to want more), it balances out to a nice enough ship to use. Nerf the DPS and then I am not so sure.


Well, that was kind of my point....was tongue in cheek. I just don't understand the logic behind the nerf. Now if they do this, AND remove the close range/higher dps ammo from the long range guns....then fine. As well as remove the ability to firewall. Basically if they do this, they need to rework the entire mechanics of missiles to bring them in line with turrets. Add complete tracking to missiles, remove sig rad and speed drawbacks, make them instant damage, remove the ability to destroy missiles and add a fall off and i think we're good.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2116 - 2012-09-20 22:25:30 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
homogenization = bad


It ruined WoW it will ruin this game. You are dumbing the game down pure and simple.

this. please CCP listen to this. i don't want to move to guild wars.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2117 - 2012-09-20 22:26:35 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys are impossible. All you care about is your precious 'do everything' Drake.


Show me on the Thorax where the Drake touched you...

EDIT: Its really more about the do SOMETHING Drake (and Tengu). One of the few Caldari ships worthy of respect.


Ah, a faction fit SNI gets close...can't hit a frig to save your life, but if you have tech II drones, you do ok.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2118 - 2012-09-20 22:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Cage Man wrote:

You comparing a medium weapon to a large weapon system, which clearly you haven't tried. Cruise missiles will pop BS MUCH faster than HML. The only time the HML is doing better than the cruise missile is for frigs and faster cruisers. But guess what... mega pulse have the same comparison to heavy pulses.. except of course if you hit an immobile frig at range with a turret ship not matter what size it will POP.. missiles are not going to do that.. but that is a different discussion Blink

Corrected you.
Even at 70km, 200m/s transverale is more than enough to make the large gun miss a non MWDing frigate. Tracking on large turret is that bad. But that's a whole different discussion, we agree on this.

For the medium turret though, you are partly wrong : medium LR turret will have a very hard time hitting a frigate inside point range, if they ever can.

PS : and the ones complaining about their only viable ship to be nerfed should really do some pvp outside of drake blob. Militia killboards are full of merlin, condors, hawks, hookbills and the likes, and I just flown with a caracal and 3 ECM ships today... And the tiericide is making all their ships amazing BTW.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2119 - 2012-09-20 22:29:23 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
]
Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..


Lol wut.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2120 - 2012-09-20 22:32:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
]
Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..


Lol wut.


Pretty much what I said lol