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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Bob Bedala
#301 - 2012-09-20 21:14:57 UTC
Thanks for your reply FoxFour Smile

CCP FoxFour wrote:
Where are these changes helpful? With changing up our PvE gameplay and moving it in a direction where we can continue to improve our PvE gameplay. The current AI that all the NPC use is not something we can really change. If we want to improve our PvE experience the first step is switching it to this newer AI so that we can make changes.


Completely get that, it's the blanket change to all rats that my cause some "collateral damage". But I guess the change will lead to more options for fine-tuning the AI in different circumstances, so great.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#302 - 2012-09-20 21:18:19 UTC
BTW the Mac version for Duality seems to be broken. It updates fine, gives you a "play" button. Pushing that results in no log-in window. The client just sits there using CPU. If you select "about Eve" from the menu you get the expected window, so its not locked up. But.. no log in window ever shows up.

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Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2012-09-20 21:19:57 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
...some things will require a change in strategy but nothing is being broken.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'broken". Big smileWhat? One of the posters explained how a particular complex (which I know nothing about personally) would now be basically impossible to complete because the logistics ships would likely be killed due to the aggro switch.
But if you think the Kobayashi Maru scenario is something we want in Eve and is not broken... ok.
mkint
#304 - 2012-09-20 21:20:19 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Alexander the Great wrote:
You want to break current PvE so you can make it better sometime in the future?

No, please make all changes together so we can see why it is better.

Currently I see only broken gameplay for some groups of players and no improvements in making PvE fun.


What are we breaking? The missions are still more than doable, some things will require a change in strategy but nothing is being broken.

Gallente nerf is gallente nerf. Drones already suck to use badly enough. Making them die super easy in addition to the inherent suckage is further relegating gallente to the scrap heap. Reworking drones to not suck needs to be a priority and you're doing the exact opposite.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#305 - 2012-09-20 21:22:57 UTC
Scoto Timta wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
...some things will require a change in strategy but nothing is being broken.

I guess that depends on your definition of 'broken". Big smileWhat? One of the posters explained how a particular complex (which I know nothing about personally) would now be basically impossible to complete because the logistics ships would likely be killed due to the aggro switch.
But if you think the Kobayashi Maru scenario is something we want in Eve and is not broken... ok.



Rofl, yea nicely put.

CCP , be sure to add the Blood Raider DEd 10/10 to that last, you will INSTANTLY see what we are talking about. Take screen shots of your wrecks for us too.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#306 - 2012-09-20 21:24:07 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Do me a favor before you guys go live with this stuff. Run anoms in a drone boat and then run them in the racial BS that is best against the local rats and compare the bounty ticks. I would think that a Navy domi versus a Navy Apoc against Sansha / Bloodraiders for example would be a decent comparison.

The way things are now If you are a Minmatar pilot you can go to Angel space and do well. If you are Amarr then Bloodraiders or Sansha space is good for you. For Caldari obviously it's serpentis/guristas. Drone boat's however have no race that they do well at killing. The advantage currently is that they do decent at all of them.

I understand that the Gallente have Hybrids as well but the caldari are more rail focused and blasters really aren't any good for PvE. The amount of time you spend traveling to the target costs you more dps than if you could hit from further out. Projectile pilots have ships like the Machariel and Vargur to make AC's usefull in PvE and the Amarr have scortch ammo and the NApoc to make Pulses good. Heck even ships without an optimal bonus like the NApoc can do well with Pulses. Blasters however, I know of no ship that makes blasters a viable option for PvE when we are talking isk/hour or isk/tick as the judging factor.

Please experiment with isk/hour potential of Gallente and drone pilots versus everyone else. Other wise you are giving Gallente / Drone pilots a serious ass pounding. Isk per hour is the almighty equalizer of everything in game. If you make half as much that means you can afford to loose half as many ships which means you'll get half as much experience and be half as good as another pilot of a different race with the same amount of game time as you. Keep that in mind.


We have been running missions with lots of different configurations. Including drone boats, logistics, missile boats, and other stuff. The one thing I really still want to test more is some of the 10/10 DED complex. This is one of the reasons we are doing this now though because it will be something coming out for our winter release. This means we have plenty of time to test it.


Are you also actively trying to PvP each other? That's a part of it. Being hunted and hunting others.


No that is not something we have been doing. To be honest there are a lot of ways this could go and it all depends on what the two people are flying.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#307 - 2012-09-20 21:24:26 UTC
If you let drones get aggro, there needs to be a countering mechanic to STOP them from getting aggro. they are no-HP DPS, which means they require a "tank". That has always been the droneboat itself in the past. But without some sort of "taunt" (Hey, you added aggro, expect terms from other games, now) running sites in a droneboat will be an exercise in frustration. ESPECIALLY if you don't use sentries (i.e. everything smaller than a domi). You can't insta-recall combat drones. In fact, recalling them tends to make them die even faster, because of the MWD sig bloom.

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#308 - 2012-09-20 21:25:58 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
BTW the Mac version for Duality seems to be broken. It updates fine, gives you a "play" button. Pushing that results in no log-in window. The client just sits there using CPU. If you select "about Eve" from the menu you get the expected window, so its not locked up. But.. no log in window ever shows up.


Can you please post about this in the test server forum. I am pretty sure they are aware of it but it will help them to have more information. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#309 - 2012-09-20 21:27:22 UTC
Mission running anything slightly hard will become a selection process like the incursion runners have. Oh, you are in a cruiser? Sorry you need x tank and x skills before you can play. No riles for the new players. Train a logi and maybe you can make friends. U see more solo mission running in exact ship types. Fun I guess. Level three missions for you and your friends because their low level t1 cruiser logi is going to melt.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#310 - 2012-09-20 21:31:30 UTC
Don't think that your work is not appreciated. Anyone having the game's best interest at hearth knows that pve needs to be redone because in it's current state it is quite laughable.
However there are some things, which needs to be taken into consideration here.

You are trying to redo pve, which will involve total redefinition of rats and redesign of sites.
As you said AI is just a start.
The problem is that the current site mechanics were not intended with 'smart' rats in mind. You were already made aware of some sites that will need some mechanics changed to a degree ( mostly high-end DEDs ).

Another thing is ninja missioning/exploration and catching ratting ships. I haven't put enough thought to it yet but I'm wondering if this change won't eliminate those forms of pvp.Question

About drones - I will just repost this here :

Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Few comments :

1) As was already stated you will probably need to adjust high-end DED sites where we have to deal with super torpedoes.
With target switching capability those sites will become wasted content. It is already taking too much time to do them and if they will require over pimped fleets with full logi support we won't be bothering with them any more.already covered

2) About drones in general :
Them drones love to use their MWD when webbed.
drone + web == dead drone
There is no way around it. No amount of skill or effort will allow you to save that drone.

Fun facts :
Medium drones have bigger signature than frigates.
Heavy drones have signature of a cruiser.

Now multiply that by mwd sig bloom, close-to-zero tanking capability and single-digit-IQ of that drone.
There is a reason why there is no point in using drones in wormholes ( without gang ).

Heavy drones are already gimped in pve. This change will make them terribly inefficient ( even more than they are now ).
Forcing all drone users to use only sentries will not be considered as good design.

Keep in mind that constant recalling/redeploying/reassigning drones is *not* fun game mechanics.


Proposition :
- no webs on drones ( all other forms of ewar are fine )
- light drones targeted by frigates only ( no destroyers )
- medium drones targeted by short range cruisers only
- heavy drones targeted by short range cruisers/battlecruisers
- no more than 4 normal rats ( 2 elite ) shooting at single drone at the same time
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#311 - 2012-09-20 21:33:23 UTC
people are upset cuss drones will get aggro but if they did this that would no longer be a big problem:
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Repair paste on drones:
I like that idea, maybe someday (no promises).

.


OMG THATS AWESOME...

I would be soo damn happy if you did this... like OMG!

think about it racalling drones back in the day was a real skill... it was the reason why people said gal were the kings of solo pvp but also the hardest to master...

it could be tricky to change the mechanics...

but what i would do is once the drone is in the drone bay it interpreted as a moduel... and all its damage gets converted to be like heat damage on a mod... that way it might be easier to for programing to actually repair them...

also you could tier the drones for repair time... even go all the way up to fighters and fighter bombers...

I understand that you guys probs cant fit this into the winter realease... but perhaps the 1.1 or even 1.2 hell i could wait untill the next summer realease... but for the love of g-d DO IT!!!!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#312 - 2012-09-20 21:41:17 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Don't think that your work is not appreciated. Anyone having the game's best interest at hearth knows that pve needs to be redone because in it's current state it is quite laughable.
However there are some things, which needs to be taken into consideration here.

You are trying to redo pve, which will involve total redefinition of rats and redesign of sites.
As you said AI is just a start.
The problem is that the current site mechanics were not intended with 'smart' rats in mind. You were already made aware of some sites that will need some mechanics changed to a degree ( mostly high-end DEDs ).

Another thing is ninja missioning/exploration and catching ratting ships. I haven't put enough thought to it yet but I'm wondering if this change won't eliminate those forms of pvp.Question

About drones - I will just repost this here :

Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Few comments :

1) As was already stated you will probably need to adjust high-end DED sites where we have to deal with super torpedoes.
With target switching capability those sites will become wasted content. It is already taking too much time to do them and if they will require over pimped fleets with full logi support we won't be bothering with them any more.already covered

2) About drones in general :
Them drones love to use their MWD when webbed.
drone + web == dead drone
There is no way around it. No amount of skill or effort will allow you to save that drone.

Fun facts :
Medium drones have bigger signature than frigates.
Heavy drones have signature of a cruiser.

Now multiply that by mwd sig bloom, close-to-zero tanking capability and single-digit-IQ of that drone.
There is a reason why there is no point in using drones in wormholes ( without gang ).

Heavy drones are already gimped in pve. This change will make them terribly inefficient ( even more than they are now ).
Forcing all drone users to use only sentries will not be considered as good design.

Keep in mind that constant recalling/redeploying/reassigning drones is *not* fun game mechanics.


Proposition :
- no webs on drones ( all other forms of ewar are fine )
- light drones targeted by frigates only ( no destroyers )
- medium drones targeted by short range cruisers only
- heavy drones targeted by short range cruisers/battlecruisers
- no more than 4 normal rats ( 2 elite ) shooting at single drone at the same time


We are fully committed to this new AI, not meaning we can't go back on it, but meaning if we find specific missions that are just not possibly any more or way harder than they are worth, we will balance them.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#313 - 2012-09-20 21:43:18 UTC
It's good that they change targets now. Makes basic missioning much more interesting in long run.

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Play with the best - die like the rest
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#314 - 2012-09-20 21:50:22 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
I am sorry you consider the CONCORD issue being pathetic, but we actually already had a fix ready before you saw this dev blog. It just happened to miss the deployment to Duality. This is exactly why we need to do this though. As I said before we can start making more changes to our PvE content we need to have the AI upgraded and deal with these problems. This must happen first. Along with the future better it leaves us with less code to maintain as we no longer need to maintain the old AI code. All of this is a good thing.


Close, FoxFour.

But the correct answer was "It's on the test server and we obviously wouldn't release it to TQ with this (highly amusing) bug, so stop your pathetic whining"

Ask Sreegs, he knows about proper forumming Blink

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2012-09-20 21:55:42 UTC
On the plus side it could make things more interesting, but this doesn't sound like it will be a terribly large change for solo running save making drone boats less desirable in general and sentry dropping from cruisers no longer viable specifically.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#316 - 2012-09-20 21:57:58 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
I am sorry you consider the CONCORD issue being pathetic, but we actually already had a fix ready before you saw this dev blog. It just happened to miss the deployment to Duality. This is exactly why we need to do this though. As I said before we can start making more changes to our PvE content we need to have the AI upgraded and deal with these problems. This must happen first. Along with the future better it leaves us with less code to maintain as we no longer need to maintain the old AI code. All of this is a good thing.


Close, FoxFour.

But the correct answer was "It's on the test server and we obviously wouldn't release it to TQ with this (highly amusing) bug, so stop your pathetic whining"

Ask Sreegs, he knows about proper forumming Blink


Well MisterNick at least the CONCORD bug wasn't as pathetic as your post. So how about you go level up your posting while I go not talk to Sreegs.

My sincere apologies. You said I needed to improve and so here I am testing my new posting skills. How did I do?

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#317 - 2012-09-20 21:59:28 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
It's good that they change targets now. Makes basic missioning much more interesting in long run.


Except life is the same for the solo mission runner minus domis and those that work in groups are taking the hit.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#318 - 2012-09-20 22:00:39 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
MisterNick wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
I am sorry you consider the CONCORD issue being pathetic, but we actually already had a fix ready before you saw this dev blog. It just happened to miss the deployment to Duality. This is exactly why we need to do this though. As I said before we can start making more changes to our PvE content we need to have the AI upgraded and deal with these problems. This must happen first. Along with the future better it leaves us with less code to maintain as we no longer need to maintain the old AI code. All of this is a good thing.


Close, FoxFour.

But the correct answer was "It's on the test server and we obviously wouldn't release it to TQ with this (highly amusing) bug, so stop your pathetic whining"

Ask Sreegs, he knows about proper forumming Blink


Well MisterNick at least the CONCORD bug wasn't as pathetic as your post. So how about you go level up your posting while I go not talk to Sreegs.

My sincere apologies. You said I needed to improve and so here I am testing my new posting skills. How did I do?


Lol That's the way.

Sorry FF I simply grow weary of the whines that happen at every change

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2012-09-20 22:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
yeah sounds good. I'm glad something is being done to liven up the missions.

I would still like to see a new type of mission that simulates PVP, as a form of training. A mission where you come up against a random NPC ship that is fit like a player PVP ship and you can to use tactics like reducing transversal, overheating, slingshoting, etc

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#320 - 2012-09-20 22:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
stealth nerf to solo bomber hunting for ratters.
Worst foes of a bomber are NPC frigs, especially if they web or target paint. The upcoming change would hence nerf solo bombers who is seeking out for ratters in bigger ships, effectively reducing the amount of kills scored by bombers.
As if it wasnt hard enough to find targets in 0.0, with these changes you will be challenged surviving such an attack due to NPCs going for ya ass once you got lucky and pointed a ratter in an anomaly. F*ck that CCP, do LESS NPC involvement in player vs. player instead of increasing that!