These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2061 - 2012-09-20 19:26:44 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
I can't help myself, got to make use of the last month or so on this account, main was Caldari all missiles and no guns :)

And there's your problem. And further, evidence of your disqualification to comment on balancing. Blink

LOL, yes my wife will appreciate it.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2062 - 2012-09-20 19:31:03 UTC
Rose Honey wrote:
TriadSte wrote:

You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


Because Heavy Missile are a Long Range low DPS system that do too much dps and make Hams pointless.
Because you can regain all the range and some by using a Tracking Computer.
Because heavy missile drakes and tengus do too many things too well at once.
Because they can
Because 101 pages of easy bake drake/tengu l4 pilots ***** is funny reading.

FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

So instead of bemoaning your loss of dps in Heavy Missiles. Just get yourself T2 Hams and carry on orbiting at 70km doing 544dps. or orbit at 28km and do 734.

Just incase someone asks.
[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II*

Medium Shield Booster II
10MN Afterburner II
Target Painter II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



*Ranges given were before the TE change take effect. So add 30% range I guess. Not entirely sure how much you'll get but it'll be stupid no doubt.

Also Inb4 duel TC Mantis.



Interesting.. Except plugging that into EFT and you get a range of 65.6k so orbiting at 70 will not hit a damn thing. Also your DPS is 458 not 544 like you said. It does go up to 650dps with rage at 39k. (still less than you claim) Oh and that's with an all 5 character.

Or are you saying that all the pilots should now have to spend another half a billion for the t2 rigs plus the new implants they will now need to be able to put out the DPS they used to before.. Cause in that case.. Feel free to send me the iskies. along with everyone else that's going to need them.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2063 - 2012-09-20 19:33:37 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
4 BCS, 6 Launchers with Scourge Fury....added a tech 1 loading accel rig and warhead cat rig, and turned of include reload time...still only getting 686....EFT v 2.16...


[Tengu, Tengu fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Medium Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



Odd:

Just did this also, same EFT version I get 761 DPS 2739 volley.

Heat takes it upto 896

This is without implants...


ODD indeed.. My All level 5:
gets 712dps but same volley..
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2064 - 2012-09-20 19:33:50 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:


I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.

But at range the effect of transversal is negligable, whereas as soon as your target moves it decreases the damage it takes from missiles.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#2065 - 2012-09-20 19:37:59 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I have no doubt there are all kinds of people theory crafting in hopes to find the new FOTM fleet ship that does everything and all the pilot has to do is press F1 to be effective. There are those screaming that the Drake is now worthless, but the fact is it will still be a solid ship. It just will require some higher piloting skill to achieve that.

QFT. This is probably the single best summation of this entire thread.
Glary Crazy
Empyrean Warriors
#2066 - 2012-09-20 19:38:05 UTC
"Hey guys, instead of buffing other ships to be in line with the two most flown ships, were going to nerf a weapon system on one which will inadvertently effect all its cousin ship and beat the **** out of the powergrid on the other as making other hulls as viable as these two would make too much sense.

KKthx guys" - CCP, fixing some stuff, literally beating the **** out the other things.
Rose Honey
Small Holdings Inc.
#2067 - 2012-09-20 19:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rose Honey
Soko99 wrote:
Rose Honey wrote:
TriadSte wrote:

You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


Because Heavy Missile are a Long Range low DPS system that do too much dps and make Hams pointless.
Because you can regain all the range and some by using a Tracking Computer.
Because heavy missile drakes and tengus do too many things too well at once.
Because they can
Because 101 pages of easy bake drake/tengu l4 pilots ***** is funny reading.

FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

So instead of bemoaning your loss of dps in Heavy Missiles. Just get yourself T2 Hams and carry on orbiting at 70km doing 544dps. or orbit at 28km and do 734.

Just incase someone asks.
[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II*

Medium Shield Booster II
10MN Afterburner II
Target Painter II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



*Ranges given were before the TE change take effect. So add 30% range I guess. Not entirely sure how much you'll get but it'll be stupid no doubt.

Also Inb4 duel TC Mantis.



Interesting.. Except plugging that into EFT and you get a range of 65.6k so orbiting at 70 will not hit a damn thing. Also your DPS is 458 not 544 like you said. It does go up to 650dps with rage at 39k. (still less than you claim) Oh and that's with an all 5 character.

Or are you saying that all the pilots should now have to spend another half a billion for the t2 rigs plus the new implants they will now need to be able to put out the DPS they used to before.. Cause in that case.. Feel free to send me the iskies. along with everyone else that's going to need them.


Ranges are before TE will add more on, Pretty sure I said that not once, BUT TWICE. And T2 Rigs are cheap and as for plus 5 implants. I guess you've never heard of Fw cash out dumps and low ball buy orders being filled at 60% normal value. Thats okay, You get what you pay for.

Edit
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II - 56.9
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II - 62.9
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II 23.3m

Current prices in jita, if you can't afford these then you're just doing it wrong. Even cheaper if you make them yourself. Given how overly Faction most people fly there Tengus 143.1m on Rigs is nothing.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2068 - 2012-09-20 19:43:19 UTC
Rose Honey wrote:


FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

Ranges are before TE will add more on, Pretty sure I said that not once, BUT TWICE. And T2 Rigs are cheap and as for plus 5 implants. I guess you've never heard of Fw cash out dumps and low ball buy orders being filled at 60% normal value. Thats okay, You get what you pay for.


The added range still doesn't explain your extra 100 DPS in both scenarios. Not to mention how many all level 5 characters are there..
Lili Lu
#2069 - 2012-09-20 19:46:03 UTC
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:


I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.

But at range the effect of transversal is negligable, whereas as soon as your target moves it decreases the damage it takes from missiles.

Vive la difference for that. But death to lack of forced fitting choices and ease with kiting P

Btw, gave you your first like for your post about your wife's preference that you not post P Will you remember your first like? Years from now Oops
Rose Honey
Small Holdings Inc.
#2070 - 2012-09-20 19:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rose Honey
Soko99 wrote:
Rose Honey wrote:


FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

Ranges are before TE will add more on, Pretty sure I said that not once, BUT TWICE. And T2 Rigs are cheap and as for plus 5 implants. I guess you've never heard of Fw cash out dumps and low ball buy orders being filled at 60% normal value. Thats okay, You get what you pay for.


The added range still doesn't explain your extra 100 DPS in both scenarios. Not to mention how many all level 5 characters are there..


Plus 5 Implants. Which if you don't wanna spend money on that's your choice. However given mission toon, why wouldn't you. Like a said, FW cashout days implant prices tank like ****.

Edit, my mission toons are all L5. Its the only thing they do. Why wouldn't they be. What else would I train on them? I mean really.
Ark Anhammar
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#2071 - 2012-09-20 19:49:01 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Again, I say HMLs are not OP compared to other LR platforms. Close up, other LR platforms will all have similar performance to the HML with short range ammo. At long range there are other factors to consider. You can't just say 'HML does x damage at x range, other medium guns do y damage at y range thus HMLs are overpowered'

On an unbonused ship, using short range ammo, the stats are as follows.

Heavy Beam Laser - 37dps, 159 alpha
250mm Railgun - 34dps, 161 alpha
Heavy Missile Launcher - 31dps, 264 alpha
720mm Artillery Cannon - 28dps, 424 alpha

Those numbers look fairly balanced to me. Ah you say - but HML can shoot to much further range than these guns with that dps, and at long range it will trump them completely.

Not true. The only time HMLs are really going to be used past 40k is in gang fights, and in gang fights there are logis and travel time. The travel time will negatively affect the dps, and makes the alpha much less significant due to the extra time logistics pilots have to prepare.

At medium-long range, HML will have the best dps - but it can be affected by other factors which other medium guns will not be.

Firewalling only affects missiles.

At that kind of range, assuming the guns are in their optimal ranges, the guns will not really be affected by tracking much. Missiles are always affected by radius/velocity.

Guns can use tracking computers and tracking enhancers to mitigate range/tracking issues. Missiles cannot do the same for their radius/velocity.

Guns apply instant dps or big instant alpha strikes in the case of artillery. Missiles do not do the same.

Guns can switch between long range and short range ammo, and at short range, a long range gun with short range ammo will trump the dps of a HML. A HML cannot switch to another type of missile to get more dps.

QFT. Seeing some people seems to deliberately skipped these facts and go straight to "hell yeah! nerf dem HMLs!!!" for some reason.

Some poeple maybe don't want to expend effort to debunk the flaws in the quoted post. Oh well, here goes,

What point is it to compare weapons without ship bonuses for those weapons. They simply don't get fit without the ship bonuses.
An all level 5 skilled character, for ease of comparison only since we all know most people usually train spec skills to 4, tech II high damage ammo, and no damage mods (just the guns man) can do the following with a
7 x HBL II Gleam Harby - 323 dps (7.5 optimal) (1395 volley)
7 x 250mm Rail II Javelin Brutix P - 298 dps (9.0 optimal) (1406 volley)
6 x 720mm Arty II Quake Hurricane - 281 dps (7.5 optimal) (3177 volley)
7 x HML II Fury Drake - 271dps (75.9 optimal -> realistic 72km range) (2310 volley)

Notice the big diference the guns less than 10km (not 40km) and the missiles 70+km. You are comparing very short range performance against a weapon system built for range and it still is competitive. BUT, then plug in the long range tech II ammo and
Harby 184 dps, 54 optimal, 787 volley
Brutix 170 dps, 65 optimal, 804 volley
Cane 161 dps, 54 optimal, 1815 volley
Drake 271 dps, 70+ optimal, 2310 volley still

And yes most people fight in gangs, small or large, with tackle distributed. Drakes often are shooting past 40km in those situations. Regardless, the turret ships have to be within scram and web range to apply their slight dps advantage with short range ammo. The Drake wins at anything over about 10-12km well within a boosted point range at around 25-30km. The travel time at those distances will mean squat. If those turret ships are fitting an armor tank they won't be catching the Drake, and if shield fit it is flimsy and probably around half the Drake's tank.

Now some of this ignores the use of TEs or TCs but those things compete with damage mods, tackle, or tank and other things a short range ship needs to do it's job. But it was your example.

Firewalling is only really ever used in blobs. It is not always effective, and even when it is it's not like some manuvering can't get the missile stream around the wall. Firewalling was a suboptimal strategy bourne of the lack of a dedicated anti-missile ewar in the game. It will quite possibly be gone once TDs start affecting missiles as well as turrets.

And in case you missed it it is not only TDs that will have a missile effect it will also be TEs and TCs. Welcome to the wonderful world of ftting choices. A world that has been heretofore only inhabited by turret boats.

Instant damage does not matter unless you are in a mixed gang and seeking killmail glory. And even there look at the drone boat. He's waiting longer for his weapons to reach the target (and don't mention sentries for pvp with a straight face for anything other than gate or station camping). In a fleet action travel time doesn't matter for a missile fleet because the bubbles or Lach/Hugi combo are your tackle. Everyone's missiles will be traveling.

And notice the volley on the Drake at 70km v the Cane at 70km.

I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.


Yes. This. I will marry you!
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#2072 - 2012-09-20 19:51:54 UTC
Wonder if fozzie has read all these comments?? Hell i didn't but will add my 2 isk

Is the aim of CCP to make all ships and weapons systems equal? Why I ask is that long range missiles are being brought in line with long range turrets, would this mean missiles will become instant damage?? not fair that a frig will get instantly by a turret at 60km but has the ability to warp off when a missile is inbound??
Will my defenders start working to mitigate turret damage??
Will my projectiles now get a FOF capability
Will my lazors get selectable damage ??
Was drone bay sizes and bandwidth even considered when nerfing missiles?? ie drake can't field 5 medium drones like a harbinger?? Will this be changed when Battle cruisers get their "balancing" ??

If you plan on balancing\making all weapon systems equal you need to go all in.... I personally like that they are all different and need a different method to counter.. ie TD not working on launchers but defenders doing OK if you choose to use them...

... What next ??
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#2073 - 2012-09-20 19:52:41 UTC
Ark Anhammar wrote:

Yes. This. I will marry you!


HeyWhat?
I was firstTwisted
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2074 - 2012-09-20 20:02:14 UTC
Rose Honey wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
Rose Honey wrote:


FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

Ranges are before TE will add more on, Pretty sure I said that not once, BUT TWICE. And T2 Rigs are cheap and as for plus 5 implants. I guess you've never heard of Fw cash out dumps and low ball buy orders being filled at 60% normal value. Thats okay, You get what you pay for.


The added range still doesn't explain your extra 100 DPS in both scenarios. Not to mention how many all level 5 characters are there..


Plus 5 Implants. Which if you don't wanna spend money on that's your choice. However given mission toon, why wouldn't you. Like a said, FW cashout days implant prices tank like ****.

Edit, my mission toons are all L5. Its the only thing they do. Why wouldn't they be. What else would I train on them? I mean really.



Some of us don't live in HS.. so running around with +5 implants isn't a very smart thing to do in null, where if you're killed you're also pretty much guaranteed to be podded too..
Lili Lu
#2075 - 2012-09-20 20:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Ark Anhammar wrote:

Yes. This. I will marry you!


HeyWhat?
I was firstTwisted

But do you want me for my thinking and writing or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNyg1ftMIU&noredirect=1 Lol

Could this be a reason for wanting more beyond the door? Lol
Rose Honey
Small Holdings Inc.
#2076 - 2012-09-20 20:11:46 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
Rose Honey wrote:
Soko99 wrote:
Rose Honey wrote:


FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

Ranges are before TE will add more on, Pretty sure I said that not once, BUT TWICE. And T2 Rigs are cheap and as for plus 5 implants. I guess you've never heard of Fw cash out dumps and low ball buy orders being filled at 60% normal value. Thats okay, You get what you pay for.


The added range still doesn't explain your extra 100 DPS in both scenarios. Not to mention how many all level 5 characters are there..


Plus 5 Implants. Which if you don't wanna spend money on that's your choice. However given mission toon, why wouldn't you. Like a said, FW cashout days implant prices tank like ****.

Edit, my mission toons are all L5. Its the only thing they do. Why wouldn't they be. What else would I train on them? I mean really.



Some of us don't live in HS.. so running around with +5 implants isn't a very smart thing to do in null, where if you're killed you're also pretty much guaranteed to be podded too..


Can always pimp the lows to Faction, eve choices you always have them. I also happen to know of a number of people that often fly into Null and Live in null with a full set of plus 5s and slaves. That however is a personally choice they get for being stupidly isk rich. (No, they are not titan ratters just lazy about clone jumping before cta's)

Personally I always use a clean clone in null, but Given I was talking about L4s from the start. I assumed anyone replying would also be talking about L4s. High sec ones, cause well its were most of them are.
Mograine Gastoves
Perkone
Caldari State
#2077 - 2012-09-20 20:17:49 UTC
... die in fire, L4 PVE Tengu is useless now!
Lili Lu
#2078 - 2012-09-20 20:19:52 UTC
I think this thread needs some more derail at this point, and since I'm gonna go in-game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrN3Rh55uM&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2079 - 2012-09-20 20:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Here is a more detailed long range fit comparison to demonstrate the concepts outlined earlier:

[Harbinger, beam]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


70km optimal (Aurora), 10k optimal (Gleam), 16km falloff
305 dps (Aurora), 534 dps (Gleam)
45k hitpoints
Cap lasts 7m of shooting or 2m 28s of shooting+mwd



[Drake, long range]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

88k range
414 dps (CN Scourge), 462 dps (Fury)
85k hitpoints


Many people have claimed that I'm cherry picking data and accused me of not mentioning the fact that turrets can switch to higher damage ammo at close ranges. They claimed that when this is factored in, the Drake is at a significant disadvantage.According to them, this is what justifies the long range dominance of HMLs.

As you can see this is completely false. Drakes don't need to do higher dps at close ranges because in that scenario they lose the travel time disadvantage while retaining their massive tank.
Wpolo
Perkone
Caldari State
#2080 - 2012-09-20 20:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Wpolo
CCP your not seeing right. Let me show u, realistic.
I used EFT for cruiser, BC and BS with 2 damage mods (BC II, HS II,...) and max turrets or launcher as possible. All lvl 5 skils. Without drones.

omen --------------------------------------caracal
5 x Heavy beam t2 won't fit--------- 5xHM t2
PG: 1239 / 912,5 (135,8%) ------- PG:472,5/662,5 (71%)
CPU: 198,75 / 312,5 (63%) --- CPU:206,25/437,5 (47%)

gleam: 7,5 + 10 ------------------- range: 113,9
dps: 362 ------------------------- dps:294
Volley: 953 ------------------------- volley: 1973

aurora: 54 + 10
dps: 207
Volley:544

Rupture ------------------------------------- Moa
4x720s t2--------------------------------------5x250s t2
PG:992/1075 (92,3%) ------------- PG:938/975 (96,2%)
CPU: 156/406,25 (38,4%) -----------CPU: 217,5/450 (48,3%)

quake: 7,5+22 ------------------------------ javelin: 9+15
dps: 165 -------------------------------------- dps:257
Volley: 1447 ------------------------------------ hit:961

tremor: 54+22 ------------------------ spike: 97+15
dps: 288 ---------------------------------dps:147
volley: 2532 -------------------------------volley: 549

Harbinger -------------------------------- Drake
7 x heavy beam t2 ----------------------7xHM t2
PG:1734,5/1875 (92,5%) --------PG:663,5/1062,5 (62,4%)
CPU:254,25/468,75 (54,2%) ---CPU:368,75/656,25 (56,2%)

gleam: 7,5+10 ------------------------ range: 75,9
dps:475 -------------------------------dps: 411
volley:1667 ---------------------------- volleyt: 2762

aurora: 54+10
dps: 271
volley: 953

hurricane ---------------------------------- Ferox
6 x720s t2 -----------------------------------6x250s t2
PG:1487/1687,5 (88,1%) ------PG:1125,2/1343,75 (83,7%)
CPU: 204/500 (40,8%) -------- CPU: 249/593,75 (41,9%)

Quake: 7,5+22 ------------------------ javelin: 14+15
dps: 432 --------------------------------dps:309
volley: 3798 ---------------------------volley:1153

Tremor: 54+22 ---------------------- spike: 97+15
dps: 247 --------------------------------- dps:176
volley: 2170 -------------------------------volleyt:659

Now let us assume that the large ships are in good balance.

abaddon ---------------------------- raven
7xtachyon beam t2 won't fit ------6x cruise t2
PG:29700/26250 (113%) ----PG:7092,2/11875 (59,7%)
CPU:438/700 (62,6%) ------ CPU:377/875 (43,1%)

gleam: 17+25 ------------ range: 227,8
dps: 781 --------------------------- dps:512
volley: 5717 --------------------volley: 3788

aurora: 119+25
dps: 446
volley: 3267

maelstrom -----------------------------------rokh
8x1400s t2 ------------------------------------8x450s t2
PG:25742/26250 (98,1%) --------PG:16634/18750 (88,8%)
CPU: 342/800 (42,8%)------------CPU: 504/904 (51,7%)

quake: 15+44-------------------------- javelin: 27+30
dps: 615 ---------------------------------- dps: 549
volley: 10847 -------------------------volley: 3074

tremor: 108+44 ---------------------- spike: 194+30
dps: 351 ----------------------------- dps:314
volley: 6198 ------------------------ volley:1757

1- HM and cruise are to easy on PG 60% x 90 %. With that balanced drake will have to reduce the tank.
2- HM have the highest volley but ok dps. Reduce de volley and speed up the round. DPS 390~410 is balanced.
3- Use HM as Cruise. Lower the speed of the missile and add flight time, keep the range. The delay will enable reps before the volley.
4- Heavy beam sucks. That really need some love, please.
5- Ferox need one more turret bay.
6- HM disntace are in balance (acording with the large weapons). Don't change.

With hard cold fact it is easy to see the RIGHT CHANGE.

About TD,
please if you are treating missile as gunnery do it fully. Mods that boost range, sig ex and sig res (as tracking). It is hard to counter TD in missile with rigs (and just the range).