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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2041 - 2012-09-20 18:52:42 UTC
CCP Please don't balance ships or weapons around LVL 4 PVE There are other ships you can use just because this ship is the best at it atm doesn't mean it isn't unbalanced. All this means is you don't want to lose your high ISK/H. You have time before winter train up HAMS and go run your LVL 4's no one is stopping you.
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2042 - 2012-09-20 18:53:09 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Caldari the new Gallente. Well not really Gallente has good caps atleast.


I think we'll see a new trend in 2012. A 50/50 split for new pilots Amarr/Minmatar.


Now a know why there's been so many Tengu pilots on the market the last couple months. Got to get rid of them before the rest of us find out about the nerf.

BTW WTS Tengu alt.


Will be more after OGB nerf hits. Maybe I'd consider Amarr if they let particle beams do kinetic damage but firing projectile weapons in space that hit with instantaneous damage, that's pure fantasy. If damage hit at the end of the cycle maybe that would be less immersion breaking.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2043 - 2012-09-20 18:55:05 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Again, I say HMLs are not OP compared to other LR platforms. Close up, other LR platforms will all have similar performance to the HML with short range ammo. At long range there are other factors to consider. You can't just say 'HML does x damage at x range, other medium guns do y damage at y range thus HMLs are overpowered'

On an unbonused ship, using short range ammo, the stats are as follows.

Heavy Beam Laser - 37dps, 159 alpha
250mm Railgun - 34dps, 161 alpha
Heavy Missile Launcher - 31dps, 264 alpha
720mm Artillery Cannon - 28dps, 424 alpha

Those numbers look fairly balanced to me. Ah you say - but HML can shoot to much further range than these guns with that dps, and at long range it will trump them completely.

Not true. The only time HMLs are really going to be used past 40k is in gang fights, and in gang fights there are logis and travel time. The travel time will negatively affect the dps, and makes the alpha much less significant due to the extra time logistics pilots have to prepare.

At medium-long range, HML will have the best dps - but it can be affected by other factors which other medium guns will not be.

Firewalling only affects missiles.

At that kind of range, assuming the guns are in their optimal ranges, the guns will not really be affected by tracking much. Missiles are always affected by radius/velocity.

Guns can use tracking computers and tracking enhancers to mitigate range/tracking issues. Missiles cannot do the same for their radius/velocity.

Guns apply instant dps or big instant alpha strikes in the case of artillery. Missiles do not do the same.

Guns can switch between long range and short range ammo, and at short range, a long range gun with short range ammo will trump the dps of a HML. A HML cannot switch to another type of missile to get more dps.

QFT. Seeing some people seems to deliberately skipped these facts and go straight to "hell yeah! nerf dem HMLs!!!" for some reason.

They are removing T2 high damage heavy missiles?!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2044 - 2012-09-20 18:57:18 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?





There i fixed that quote for you.

Also HML's were the highest dps long range weapon by FAR, and they will still have more dps than comparable long range weapons after the nerf.

l2p?


but if long range guns switch to short range ammo, does their DPS NOT exceed that of the drake? Can the drake change to HAM's mid fight?



No.. HML's still out damage them with the exception of the beams with close range ammo..... And they dont' have to worry about tracking like the long range weapons do.

Stop being bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2045 - 2012-09-20 19:01:29 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?





There i fixed that quote for you.

Also HML's were the highest dps long range weapon by FAR, and they will still have more dps than comparable long range weapons after the nerf.

l2p?


but if long range guns switch to short range ammo, does their DPS NOT exceed that of the drake? Can the drake change to HAM's mid fight?



No.. HML's still out damage them with the exception of the beams with close range ammo..... And they dont' have to worry about tracking like the long range weapons do.

Stop being bad.



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2046 - 2012-09-20 19:04:47 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?





There i fixed that quote for you.

Also HML's were the highest dps long range weapon by FAR, and they will still have more dps than comparable long range weapons after the nerf.

l2p?


but if long range guns switch to short range ammo, does their DPS NOT exceed that of the drake? Can the drake change to HAM's mid fight?



No.. HML's still out damage them with the exception of the beams with close range ammo..... And they dont' have to worry about tracking like the long range weapons do.

Stop being bad.

So there's a frigate somewhere that can outrun turret weapons?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2047 - 2012-09-20 19:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..

Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:

So there's a frigate somewhere that can outrun turret weapons?

rofl
Don't you start being bad too...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#2048 - 2012-09-20 19:06:51 UTC
Something here that I see is glaringly obvious is the majority of pilots commenting here are EFT Warriors, who have either never used Missiles in PvP or when they have it has been in those ******** Null-Sec Blob Fights.

Just because a Missile "on-paper" says it is capable of X DPS, there is frankly F*** ALL chance you will EVER actually achieve that magical theoretical number that is being told to you unless you're hitting a Structure. The majority of the time you're happy if your missiles average around 70% what they are 'suppose' to be doing.

Using the Tengu as an example of how Heavy Missiles are over-powered is just frankly ridiculous.
It is a Tech Level 3 Ship, it is SUPPOSE to be OP... even still I would like to point out, that for a Battleship; the Raven actually outputs a monumentally pathetic amount of Damage.

You compare the Raven (which 750dps btw is still low as a well fit Raven should be breaking 850-900dps) to any other Battleship, aside from the Scorpion (which fills the ECM role so it is fine for the pathetic damage) every other Battleship is capable of 1,000+ DPS within 30KM.

So the entire argument about Battleship Damage output from a Battlecruiser (which I will point out technically the Tengu is a Cruiser) is complete bull**** pulled from your rear ends.

If anything it actually goes to point out the more glaringly obvious issue that Heavy Missiles are currently one of the only VIABLE Missile Systems.

You wonder why no one uses HAMS? Well try looking at the Caldari Ships, they're ridiculously slow unless you strip them of ALL of their Defensive capabilities. Realistically right now with the range of HAMs (and considerably more CPU required which again Caldari ships don't exactly have in abundance) you're choice is extra Damage or extra Defense... as a Caldari ship without shield is a Dead Ship, frankly 90% of the time this isn't even a decision.

Right now CCP seem to want to strip Caldari ships of their Defensive Capabilities and Offensive Capabilities.
Simply because those who fly Caldari tend to stick to a handful of ships, rather than Nerfing everything thinking "Well this should get them using more ships" ... perhaps it might be a better idea to find out WHY we stick to a handful of ships, given the entire damn galaxy seems to want to fly the ridiculously over-powered Projectile-based ships that can change their damage type at will and out-run our damn missiles or out-range out gunships.

HMM, I wonder why we choose ships designed to take a beating long enough to run back to a gate.
Not saying that Missiles don't need to be rebalanced, but you can Nerf or Buff them all you want; it won't change the fact that Short-Range are simply gimped Long-Range systems.

To me these systems need to have different gameplay mechanics from each other with the Missile variations rather than being specific damage types; they should do multiple damage types and be RANGE & DAMAGE based. This should then be echoed with the T2 Damage / Precision variations... as it stands this isn't the case so T2 frankly comes down to Anti-Ship (your own size) or Anti-Ship (smaller than you)
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2049 - 2012-09-20 19:07:31 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..



They might be able to hit frigs but they don't **** them.

As a matter of fact, get higher velocity than a missile and they can't even hit you.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2050 - 2012-09-20 19:08:06 UTC
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
So are my missiles now going to get critical hits like turrets do? Perfect and well-aimed strikes?? Or should we keep ignoring those in looking at DPS for medium range weapon systems?

As long as they get the 'completely misses' at short range too, I'm ok with it.
Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2051 - 2012-09-20 19:10:04 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..

Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:

So there's a frigate somewhere that can outrun turret weapons?

rofl
Don't you start being bad too...

I can't help myself, got to make use of the last month or so on this account, main was Caldari all missiles and no guns :)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2052 - 2012-09-20 19:10:41 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..



They might be able to hit frigs but they don't **** them.

As a matter of fact, get higher velocity than a missile and they can't even hit you.


Try to fight a poddla drake with a frig and tell me how that works out for you.

And yes you could theoretically make some lol dramiel going at 7k m/s benny hilling around..

but thats not really a realistic scenario and not nearly as relevant as how easy it is to get under other long range guns. Again, BAD

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2053 - 2012-09-20 19:11:40 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
So are my missiles now going to get critical hits like turrets do? Perfect and well-aimed strikes?? Or should we keep ignoring those in looking at DPS for medium range weapon systems?

As long as they get the 'completely misses' at short range too, I'm ok with it.



They do, it's called "you hit target for 0 damage"

Just becaue the game said you hit the target doesn't make 0 damage a hit.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2054 - 2012-09-20 19:13:11 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..



They might be able to hit frigs but they don't **** them.

As a matter of fact, get higher velocity than a missile and they can't even hit you.


Try to fight a poddla drake with a frig and tell me how that works out for you.

And yes you could theoretically make some lol dramiel going at 7k m/s benny hilling around..

but thats not really a realistic scenario and not nearly as relevant as how easy it is to get under other long range guns. Again, BAD


Ever heard of inteceptor?

Oh, and outrunning the explosion velocity of missiles is a hell of a lot easier than out running the missile themselves.
Lili Lu
#2055 - 2012-09-20 19:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Sarah Schneider wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Again, I say HMLs are not OP compared to other LR platforms. Close up, other LR platforms will all have similar performance to the HML with short range ammo. At long range there are other factors to consider. You can't just say 'HML does x damage at x range, other medium guns do y damage at y range thus HMLs are overpowered'

On an unbonused ship, using short range ammo, the stats are as follows.

Heavy Beam Laser - 37dps, 159 alpha
250mm Railgun - 34dps, 161 alpha
Heavy Missile Launcher - 31dps, 264 alpha
720mm Artillery Cannon - 28dps, 424 alpha

Those numbers look fairly balanced to me. Ah you say - but HML can shoot to much further range than these guns with that dps, and at long range it will trump them completely.

Not true. The only time HMLs are really going to be used past 40k is in gang fights, and in gang fights there are logis and travel time. The travel time will negatively affect the dps, and makes the alpha much less significant due to the extra time logistics pilots have to prepare.

At medium-long range, HML will have the best dps - but it can be affected by other factors which other medium guns will not be.

Firewalling only affects missiles.

At that kind of range, assuming the guns are in their optimal ranges, the guns will not really be affected by tracking much. Missiles are always affected by radius/velocity.

Guns can use tracking computers and tracking enhancers to mitigate range/tracking issues. Missiles cannot do the same for their radius/velocity.

Guns apply instant dps or big instant alpha strikes in the case of artillery. Missiles do not do the same.

Guns can switch between long range and short range ammo, and at short range, a long range gun with short range ammo will trump the dps of a HML. A HML cannot switch to another type of missile to get more dps.

QFT. Seeing some people seems to deliberately skipped these facts and go straight to "hell yeah! nerf dem HMLs!!!" for some reason.

Some poeple maybe don't want to expend effort to debunk the flaws in the quoted post. Oh well, here goes,

What point is it to compare weapons without ship bonuses for those weapons. They simply don't get fit without the ship bonuses.
An all level 5 skilled character, for ease of comparison only since we all know most people usually train spec skills to 4, tech II high damage ammo, and no damage mods (just the guns man) can do the following with a
7 x HBL II Gleam Harby - 323 dps (7.5 optimal) (1395 volley)
7 x 250mm Rail II Javelin Brutix P - 298 dps (9.0 optimal) (1406 volley)
6 x 720mm Arty II Quake Hurricane - 281 dps (7.5 optimal) (3177 volley)
7 x HML II Fury Drake - 271dps (75.9 optimal -> realistic 72km range) (2310 volley)

Notice the big diference the guns less than 10km (not 40km) and the missiles 70+km. You are comparing very short range performance against a weapon system built for range and it still is competitive. BUT, then plug in the long range tech II ammo and
Harby 184 dps, 54 optimal, 787 volley
Brutix 170 dps, 65 optimal, 804 volley
Cane 161 dps, 54 optimal, 1815 volley
Drake 271 dps, 70+ optimal, 2310 volley still

And yes most people fight in gangs, small or large, with tackle distributed. Drakes often are shooting past 40km in those situations. Regardless, the turret ships have to be within scram and web range to apply their slight dps advantage with short range ammo. The Drake wins at anything over about 10-12km well within a boosted point range at around 25-30km. The travel time at those distances will mean squat. If those turret ships are fitting an armor tank they won't be catching the Drake, and if shield fit it is flimsy and probably around half the Drake's tank.

Now some of this ignores the use of TEs or TCs but those things compete with damage mods, tackle, or tank and other things a short range ship needs to do it's job. But it was your example.

Firewalling is only really ever used in blobs. It is not always effective, and even when it is it's not like some manuvering can't get the missile stream around the wall. Firewalling was a suboptimal strategy bourne of the lack of a dedicated anti-missile ewar in the game. It will quite possibly be gone once TDs start affecting missiles as well as turrets.

And in case you missed it it is not only TDs that will have a missile effect it will also be TEs and TCs. Welcome to the wonderful world of ftting choices. A world that has been heretofore only inhabited by turret boats.

Instant damage does not matter unless you are in a mixed gang and seeking killmail glory. And even there look at the drone boat. He's waiting longer for his weapons to reach the target (and don't mention sentries for pvp with a straight face for anything other than gate or station camping). In a fleet action travel time doesn't matter for a missile fleet because the bubbles or Lach/Hugi combo are your tackle. Everyone's missiles will be traveling.

And notice the volley on the Drake at 70km v the Cane at 70km.

I think you need to get some experience with guns. I've got experience with both weapons. Do you? Training specs on 3 types of guns at all sizes and missiles at all sizes is a *****, but once you are there you notice these things. It gives you more of a perspective on the game than just oh boo hoo they're nerfing the weapon system I use.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2056 - 2012-09-20 19:20:54 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:



Actually

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535

Look at thse comparisons.

And heavy missiles still need target painters for everything but battleships if not using rigors


Uhm, HML drakes **** frigates..

And i'm pretty sure frigates are smaller than battleships..



They might be able to hit frigs but they don't **** them.

As a matter of fact, get higher velocity than a missile and they can't even hit you.


Try to fight a poddla drake with a frig and tell me how that works out for you.

And yes you could theoretically make some lol dramiel going at 7k m/s benny hilling around..

but thats not really a realistic scenario and not nearly as relevant as how easy it is to get under other long range guns. Again, BAD


Ever heard of inteceptor?

Oh, and outrunning the explosion velocity of missiles is a hell of a lot easier than out running the missile themselves.




You mean to tell me a Drake won't be able to shoot a ship no other long range weapon would hit either? /o\ Oh noes!

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2057 - 2012-09-20 19:21:10 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

7 x HBL II Gleam Harby - 323 dps (7.5 optimal) (1395 volley)
7 x 250mm Rail II Javelin Brutix P - 298 dps (9.0 optimal) (1406 volley)
6 x 720mm Arty II Quake Hurricane - 281 dps (7.5 optimal) (3177 volley)
7 x HML II Fury Drake - 271dps (75.9 optimal -> realistic 72km range) (2310 volley)


This is why I made this suggestion

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535
Lili Lu
#2058 - 2012-09-20 19:22:34 UTC
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:
I can't help myself, got to make use of the last month or so on this account, main was Caldari all missiles and no guns :)

And there's your problem. And further, evidence of your disqualification to comment on balancing. Blink
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#2059 - 2012-09-20 19:22:40 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

*snip*


Nuff said
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2060 - 2012-09-20 19:22:57 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:



You mean to tell me a Drake won't be able to shoot a ship no other long range weapon would hit either? /o\ Oh noes!



Except a drake wouldn't be able to hit it with ham javelin or rage as well as hml rage or precision.

/o\ Oh yes!!!