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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#161 - 2012-09-20 17:19:19 UTC
This will create an awesome flood of tears, wailing and pulling hair and beards (if present).

It will make it harder to just use the same old and well documented ways/fittings/tactics over and over again.

Think the awesome amount of dead ships (some very shiny) followed by huge amounts of tears when incursions was released, but at least 10x more ;)

No longer will npc rats just follow the script and let themself be slaughtered without actually forcing the player to assess the situation and react.

It will be harder to just grind the same series of missions/deds/plexes over and over again without even bothering.

Some will see this as an annoying way to make it harder to farm the isk they want/need for having fun (which most likely doesn't include PvE stuff).

But I'd say that this change is well overdue, and like it was with incursions, people will assess, analyze and adapt.

And those who can't or can't be arsed to, will leave or find another way to fund their habit.

But drones will be an issue, ctrl-r is nice, but sentries move quite slowly ... ;)

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#162 - 2012-09-20 17:19:42 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
[...] the only thing missions teach you about EWAR is that you can feed your capacitor indefinitely by pointing a NOS at a nearby rat. [...]



Tested 2 weeks ago in a curse. Does not work.


@ Jenn aSide:

Allright, I've never done the highend plexes before. But maybe the solution will be not to bring a Logi and T3s, but to bring spidering Battleships. I could see a bunch of Sins (reliying on drones lol) performing ... acceptable. Marauder Gangs. Or the fact that 9/10 and 10/10 are no longer designed for one or two guys multiboxing, but as a Fleet-PvE adventure much like Incursions. Share the wealth ;)

Or yeah, adjusting the Sites to new AI in terms of DPS might also be a good idea.


I highlighted the important part. That torp will ALPHA a battleship (even a bonused resist monster liek an Abaddon) spider reps or not, which is why no one bring battleships to TANK Fleet Staging Points, Mazes or other 9-10/10s. Hell, people who didn't know what they were doing have in the past lost carriers and dreads in some of these (namely fleet staging point) although you had to be really asleep at the wheel to do that.

No, the stations or rats that shoot citadel torps switching would totally break the 9-10s and 10/10s that have them, it's not a matter of "bring more people".
Travis Wells
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2012-09-20 17:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Travis Wells
Making pve more "engaging" makes pve more tedious than it already is, making the time sink to make isk to fund other adventures more difficult giving us less fun, and more work, grrrrreeeeaaaattttttt.
Warr Akini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-09-20 17:19:59 UTC
CCP, heed my words:

If you're going to do this, at least add a "Launch Drones" hotkey. I know you don't currently have a system to designate which five (assuming five+) drones to launch, but let us deal with that while you give us a basic function.
Mr Quinto
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2012-09-20 17:23:26 UTC
I guess CCP wants us to quit the game, and perhaps I will when this change comes.
It takes a long tedious grinding with drones. Even with them not being targeted, each mission will take an hour to complete, also preparing the mission, and moving my ship there.
I guess this game won't be worth my time anymore if spending all these hours to lose ships in some L4 missions.
I am not playing this game as a labour, I played this game for fun.
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-09-20 17:25:38 UTC
good point travis wells
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2012-09-20 17:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Emmy Mnemonic
I studied a class in Artificial Intelligence at the university faculty of computer science, some 20 years ago. Still remember our professor that started the first lecture by defining what AI is in mathematical terms, one definition more boring and dry than the other. But near the end, he put up a picture with the definition he said that he liked the most:

"Artifical Intelligence is when you make computers behave like they do in the movies".


Guess we now could include "..and in EVE" to that ;-)

Good job CCP! Shooting artificially smarter rats is more fun than shooting artifically stupid rats! I playe EVE to get a challenge, if it was no challenge I would quit. Mostly you get challenges from other players (social aspects, pvp, cooperation in corps and alliance, different people from around the world with different languages and culttures etc etc). But when they are not around, AI rats will give you a substitute and make the boring parts of EVE less boring.

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#168 - 2012-09-20 17:29:11 UTC
good work.. it will cover "player drone ai" too, wont it?

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#169 - 2012-09-20 17:30:59 UTC
FYI, drone launch button would actually be pretty easy to implement

The current issue (I assume, at least) is "how do you decide what drones to launch when the hotkey is pressed"

The solution is simple -- allow us to drag a drone group onto the hotbar. Then, the existing [ctrl|alt] F1-F8 keys can be used to launch drones, removing any ambiguity in the command.
Konrad Kane
#170 - 2012-09-20 17:32:01 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:

Vincent Athena wrote:
If you are a solo mission runner using turrets or missiles, this is a virtual non-change. It only impacts drone users and fleets.
Standard combat pilots have ammo costs ( excluding t1 crystals ). Drone pilots will now have ammo costs.


It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes.

Now if they allowed you to move drones from your hold to your bay I think you'd have a very fair point.

I'm also interested to see if it'll make some site impossible for a mid SP level player to run solo.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#171 - 2012-09-20 17:33:06 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
FYI, drone launch button would actually be pretty easy to implement

The current issue (I assume, at least) is "how do you decide what drones to launch when the hotkey is pressed"

The solution is simple -- allow us to drag a drone group onto the hotbar. Then, the existing [ctrl|alt] F1-F8 keys can be used to launch drones, removing any ambiguity in the command.


So much this lol.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#172 - 2012-09-20 17:33:44 UTC
Konrad Kane wrote:
It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes.
Or be a non-drone combat pilot that is ECM jammed 30 seconds at a time (possibly until your tank snaps), dampened and webbed to under 4k lock range (no point in having turrets for some situations), and similar scenarios.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#173 - 2012-09-20 17:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Jenn aSide wrote:

Now, i don't agree with this part, a carrier can mount smart bombs and neuts, hell I've ECM-bursted my way out of level 5s in a carrier before just to see if I could do it.

The problem I have with switching aggro to drones is just the shear tediousness of having to do it over and over again. That's not fun, pve should at least be somewhat enjoyable.

We'll see how it pans out.

Well heavy drones are very slow, so you will loose drones. Smartbombs are not good in high sec as you will get concorded if someone warps into your mission in a cloaky and sits 2km off of you cloaked.
Capitals / carriers are also not allowed in high sec....

So yea, please program npc's to leave drones alone at least in high sec.
aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-09-20 17:35:14 UTC
Will you also be removing the absurdity of "groups" in missions (and select DED sites)? It's hilariously unrealistic that going into a room and shooting 1 rat should leave the majority of the rats just sitting there doing nothing, so will that be changed as well with the AI changes?
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2012-09-20 17:36:44 UTC
Despana wrote:
Let me tell you why I will quit this game if this changes will go live:

I play eve since 2004 and I am not a big fan of gangs, fleets etc.
Because this game is sandbox, it gives us free choice what to do. My choice is SOLO, period, and here's why it will kill 95% of my fun:

I do fly Assaults and other small ships ships in null / low sec. to catch belt, anomaly, mission hunters on small ships and then kill them when they don't pay enough attention to local and d-scan. Now, killing drakes, ravens, dominixes and other hunter will be impossible on small ships, because I won't have enough time to kill them before NPC's will trim me off.


I think you're taking the change more serious than it is. Feel free to proof me wrong, but what kind of encounters are we talking about? Let's say there's a Battlecruiser doing a Level 3 in low. So you sneak in and start attacking the Battlecruiser with an Assault Ship. What happens now is not having every second NPC start shooting you immediately or anything like that.

There's a chance that they start shooting you, however only the small NPCs flying frigates as well might do so immediately. The bigger ships will still most likely continue shooting the Battlecruiser. You might even be able to use the whole change to your advantage, especially in the case the NPCs start shooting the Battlecruiser's drones rather than you.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-09-20 17:36:49 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Konrad Kane wrote:
It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes.
Or be a non-drone combat pilot that is ECM jammed 30 seconds at a time (possibly until your tank snaps), dampened and webbed to under 4k lock range (no point in having turrets for some situations), and similar scenarios.


At least in the future this will only matter until the NPC's aggro your drones. At which point you recall. Then when you relaunch and are jammed they will just sit there and we will both be in the same boat.
Ardon Gareau
Chasm City Syndicate
#177 - 2012-09-20 17:39:01 UTC
Tsukinosuke wrote:
good work.. it will cover "player drone ai" too, wont it?


I would certainly hope so. Player drones are currently dumb as a rock.
Reginald Zebranky
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-09-20 17:42:28 UTC
NPCs switching targets in some of the more difficult complexes is going to be troublesome for sure.
I know lots of folks rely on being able to manage who the structures/npcs are shooting at.

Sites like

  • The Maze (final room)
  • Dread Guristas fleet staging point (final stage)
  • No Quarter (final stage)

put out an astronomical amount of DPS. A dedicated tanking ship is usually required.

The tank-ship (often a pimped-out Tengu or a capital ship) typically sacrifices dps for tank.
The high-skilled tengu-tanker takes the aggro and lower-skilled players warp in with whatever dps ships they have.

Managing who that structure fires its Citadel Torps or Siege Railguns Batteries at is pretty key.

It is going to be interesting to see how this works out. We're going to have to come up with new techniques on the double.
Hopefully it won't lock lower-skilled players out of participating in these harder plexes entirely.

On a related note: Along with the heavy missile dps nerf this is another hit to nullsec player income. We could sure use an isk buff out here!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#179 - 2012-09-20 17:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only?


To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.


Wait, WHAT? I totally missed this.

You're thinking about making changes to content you're not personally familiar with?

Are you familiar with any of the DED 10/10s and 9/10 equivalents (Fleet Staging Points), like especially the Blood Raider one that not only throws a citadel torp at you but neuts you so dry the only way to tank it is with a totally passive and expensive armor tanked low sig high EM resist ship supported by squishy logi because reps on a battleship or two isn't enough?

As politely as I can manage may I say please don't screw around with content that your players enjoy that you know nothing about until you know more about it please. This is how things get broken, does ccp normally let people who don't know the content inside and out make changes?
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2012-09-20 17:49:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Wait, WHAT? I totally missed this.

You're thinking about making changes to content you're not personally familiar with?

In a game as big and as complex as a MMORPG noone can know everything. I've played Dark Age of Camelot for 7 years and yet I only knew about one third of all contents.

Also, they don't claim these changes are final, nor that they've tested them everywhere. They especially asked us to test these, because we might play completely different, do different things, etc.

These feedback threads are there fore such things. See something the devs didn't think about? Tell them about it and they'll most likely be happy to look at it.

Modifying a game like Eve it's impossible to keep every possible mission, constellation, etc. in mind. It's just astronomically (pun intended).

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.