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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2001 - 2012-09-20 16:49:53 UTC
Oleszka wrote:
oh oh i have to say, you kick already the learing skills, now you go on to kick the missile skills, beause the characteristics of turrets and lauchers becoming the same and there is no need for two skilling trees. ..... then you remove the skilling books and continuie by giving SP by killing NPCs....

you do a misstake after the next...

..
...
..
how many player quit because you remove the "learning" skill?
how many player quit because you remove the hangar.?
how many player quit because you force the new invertory? before you change it..... with lot of bugs now
...
...
...

now you continue the Story and you lose more and more eve player and replacing it with world of warcraft zombies


You do realize that eve grows every single year right? Any people that quit have been replaced and then some.. So in the end its a win.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2002 - 2012-09-20 16:50:29 UTC
[quote=CCP Fozzie]

All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2003 - 2012-09-20 16:53:23 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Oleszka wrote:
I have a quastion about the effect of skills.

If we learn gunnery skills like "Rapid Fireing", this skill effects all Turret kinds but if we skill only missiles "Rapid Launcher", this is only effecting missiles, but the collection of turrets is much bigger than the collection of launchers, so you punish the caldari characters and all players which are skilling missiles.

in my opinion you are damaging more with you rebalancing idea than you try to fix.

btw. we have two different typs of skill trees in weapons but gunnery skills are good for all factions and missiles are only effecting more caldari ships. That means player which are skilling caldari ships need much more time to fly other ships(like Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar).

... and if you apply the effect of TDs to missiles you have to apply the effect of the "Rapid Launcher" Skill on Turrets and cancel all missile skills beause there is no difference any more!


why in hell you dont make the defender missile more effectiv, dose you great statistic not say no one is using it?


1) You don't need to train level 5 in smaller missile launcher in order to get to the bigger. You can train directly to heavy/assault/cruise/torpedoes. Turrets are different. In order to get to the T2 medium turrets you need to train level 5 in small turret and specialization skill at level 4.

2) You get weapon system with fully selectable damage with both T1 and T2 ammo while turret systems don't ( only Minmatar get selectable damage with T1 ammo but it's not 100% one damage type like missiles ). That means you can get maximal effectiveness in pve ( you select type of damage that is most suitable to rats you are fighting ) and pvp. Other races have serious limitations in that area.

3) Other races need to train missiles too ( for bombers and several other ships ). Minmatar are quite heavy reliant on missiles. In addition all races but Caldari also need serious drone training ( including T2 heavy and sentry for some ships ) while your missile boats don't need them ( you are ok with T2 light/medium drones ).

Try to see bigger picture.


But the Drake and the Tengu are still limited to kinetic considering the damage bonuses they currently have.

Bigger Picture for skill training:
While yes, it is quicker to get into T2 Heavies.....HOWEVER:

To take a raw toon with with no implants and no remap, it would take 367 days to get HM, HAM, Cruise and Torps to lvl 5 specialization and all the support skills...no love to Light Missiles and Torps

To take a raw toon with no implants and no remap, it would take 349 days to get PERFECT Gun specializations of both types for Lasers or Hybrids, less for Projectiles as you don't need controlled burst
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2004 - 2012-09-20 16:56:08 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?





There i fixed that quote for you.

Also HML's were the highest dps long range weapon by FAR, and they will still have more dps than comparable long range weapons after the nerf.

l2p?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2005 - 2012-09-20 17:00:17 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


You mean that battleship dps at battleship range?
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2006 - 2012-09-20 17:01:43 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
100 pages of tears. Delicious.



Lets face it, once they nerf the drake/tengu some other ship/ fleet combo is gonna take over and there's gonna be tears about that.

Probably anoter battlecruiser to be honest.

Duel ASB cyclone gangs maybe?

Duel ASB Cyclone is amazing, but let's be honest here. That kind of micromanagement is far beyond the ability of your average block member.

I have no doubt there are all kinds of people theory crafting in hopes to find the new FOTM fleet ship that does everything and all the pilot has to do is press F1 to be effective. There are those screaming that the Drake is now worthless, but the fact is it will still be a solid ship. It just will require some higher piloting skill to achieve that.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#2007 - 2012-09-20 17:03:52 UTC
Excellent tea, sir. Quite so, quite so. Why yes! A small one please. Ah, even the biscuit is delicious! What? Oh, the pinky. I forgot. Quite often actually; I'd forget my implants if they weren't in my head! Oh, this is my clone. Not very much. The faction warfare discounts are handy and I'm still fairly new. I must say, this tea, it's so...balanced!
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2008 - 2012-09-20 17:04:50 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


All Missiles

Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?





There i fixed that quote for you.

Also HML's were the highest dps long range weapon by FAR, and they will still have more dps than comparable long range weapons after the nerf.

l2p?


but if long range guns switch to short range ammo, does their DPS NOT exceed that of the drake? Can the drake change to HAM's mid fight?
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2009 - 2012-09-20 17:07:48 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


You mean that battleship dps at battleship range?


How do you figure BS DPS at BS Range....the Raven can hit for 728 dps @ 227 km....not quite understanding that statement...
Rose Honey
Small Holdings Inc.
#2010 - 2012-09-20 17:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rose Honey
TriadSte wrote:

You are having a late April fools joke yes?

So in that respect I'm going to lose :

106 DPS
4.5 Seconds of flight time that's a loss of 37km with current figures.

Are you going crazy over there in Iceland or what? What in gods name got into your thick skulls about reducing heavy missile damage?

Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


Because Heavy Missile are a Long Range low DPS system that do too much dps and make Hams pointless.
Because you can regain all the range and some by using a Tracking Computer.
Because heavy missile drakes and tengus do too many things too well at once.
Because they can
Because 101 pages of easy bake drake/tengu l4 pilots ***** is funny reading.

FYI Ham Tengu can already get 39km range with Rage Missiles and the right rigs, doing 734dps with the right implants and T2 fit. 544dps and 65km with Javs. All this before the change which will only increase hams to stupid levels on a tengu.

So instead of bemoaning your loss of dps in Heavy Missiles. Just get yourself T2 Hams and carry on orbiting at 70km doing 544dps. or orbit at 28km and do 734.

Just incase someone asks.
[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Tracking Enhancer II*

Medium Shield Booster II
10MN Afterburner II
Target Painter II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



*Ranges given were before the TE change take effect. So add 30% range I guess. Not entirely sure how much you'll get but it'll be stupid no doubt.

Also Inb4 duel TC Mantis.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2011 - 2012-09-20 17:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


You mean that battleship dps at battleship range?


How do you figure BS DPS at BS Range....the Raven can hit for 728 dps @ 227 km....not quite understanding that statement...


Tengu does 760 dps at 110km.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2012 - 2012-09-20 17:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
Theyre not exactly awesome DPS as they are. What was the thought process for making medicore DPS.....worse?


You mean that battleship dps at battleship range?


How do you figure BS DPS at BS Range....the Raven can hit for 728 dps @ 227 km....not quite understanding that statement...


Tengu does 760 dps at 110k.


it's still not BS range, and he was discussing the Drake, not the Tengu.....Tech 3's are a different subject all together...

Also, stop using officer BCS and +6 implants to skew the numbers.....it's 631 with tech II BCS...
TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2013 - 2012-09-20 17:28:54 UTC
I think the ONLY way this will work on say a Tengu is if the missile bonus was applied to all damage types not just Scourge.

Tengu is a T3 ship, therefore I think a nerf to missiles should not apply equally throughout all the different ship classes.

Tier 1 ship classes biggest nerf;
T2 smaller nerf;
T3 smallest nerf.

Simply because it is T3, the most advanced technology in the New Eden. They should be able to eek more performance out of anything because of the advanced nature of the ship.

Let me end on this, I got my previous figures on my previous post from my Tengu flying alt who has all lvl5 skills in everything missile related [including ass/heavy spec]

For anyone without all lvl5 skills, this nerfs going to hurt......alot and maybe drive players away from missile boats.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#2014 - 2012-09-20 17:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: The Bazzalisk
Again, I say HMLs are not OP compared to other LR platforms. Close up, other LR platforms will all have similar performance to the HML with short range ammo. At long range there are other factors to consider. You can't just say 'HML does x damage at x range, other medium guns do y damage at y range thus HMLs are overpowered'

On an unbonused ship, using short range ammo, the stats are as follows.

Heavy Beam Laser - 37dps, 159 alpha
250mm Railgun - 34dps, 161 alpha
Heavy Missile Launcher - 31dps, 264 alpha
720mm Artillery Cannon - 28dps, 424 alpha

Those numbers look fairly balanced to me. Ah you say - but HML can shoot to much further range than these guns with that dps, and at long range it will trump them completely.

Not true. The only time HMLs are really going to be used past 40k is in gang fights, and in gang fights there are logis and travel time. The travel time will negatively affect the dps, and makes the alpha much less significant due to the extra time logistics pilots have to prepare.

At medium-long range, HML will have the best dps - but it can be affected by other factors which other medium guns will not be.

Firewalling only affects missiles.

At that kind of range, assuming the guns are in their optimal ranges, the guns will not really be affected by tracking much. Missiles are always affected by radius/velocity.

Guns can use tracking computers and tracking enhancers to mitigate range/tracking issues. Missiles cannot do the same for their radius/velocity.

Guns apply instant dps or big instant alpha strikes in the case of artillery. Missiles do not do the same.

Guns can switch between long range and short range ammo, and at short range, a long range gun with short range ammo will trump the dps of a HML. A HML cannot switch to another type of missile to get more dps.



Having typed all of this out, I get the impression that CCP have already made their mind up and nothing is going to change, so I probably wasted my time anyway.
Losvar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2015 - 2012-09-20 17:33:23 UTC
What are you planning to do with the Nighthawk?
It's the weakest command ship in the game now, and this will make it even more useless.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2016 - 2012-09-20 17:33:25 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Also, stop using officer BCS and +6 implants to skew the numbers.....it's 631 with tech II BCS...


715 dps with T2. 761 is with CN BCSs.

And no implants needed unless you want to use them.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#2017 - 2012-09-20 17:35:32 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Try again, optimal + falloff is 50% damage. and do tell, how many ships are over 1625m/s that aren't frigates?

and 76k meters for a 720 with Tremor, try it and tell me how that works out for you.


Notice that I'm not talking about DPS at all, but about the range that long range weapons are viable. And at 75km, 625m/s is basically a BC or less w/ MWD.

And in this context, doesn't matter how much Alpha 720mm output - a HML ship will do 0 damage. If you want to bring DPS into this.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2018 - 2012-09-20 17:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Also, stop using officer BCS and +6 implants to skew the numbers.....it's 631 with tech II BCS...


715 dps with T2. 761 is with CN BCSs.

And no implants needed unless you want to use them.


Dude...I've got it up on EFT right now....let's see the fit....Obviously then you are rigging for damage and sacrificing a lot of tank
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2019 - 2012-09-20 17:40:00 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Dude...I've got it up on EFT right now....let's see the fit....Obviously then you are rigging for damage and sacrificing a lot of tank


Are you using 4 BCS and Skource Fury? All level 5?
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2020 - 2012-09-20 17:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Dude...I've got it up on EFT right now....let's see the fit....Obviously then you are rigging for damage and sacrificing a lot of tank


Are you using 4 BCS and Skource Fury? All level 5?


4 BCS, 6 Launchers with Scourge Fury....added a tech 1 loading accel rig and warhead cat rig, and turned of include reload time...still only getting 686....EFT v 2.16...don't tell me you are skewing the number by over-heating