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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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None ofthe Above
#1961 - 2012-09-20 15:11:48 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
The HM nerf has been much needed for a long time. For all those crying over it, let's put this in perspective:

1) A Harbinger with Heavy beam laser II's using IN MF does 318 dps at 15km + 10km falloff (25km total).

2) A Hurricane with 720mm Howitzer II's using RF PP does 290 dps at 15km + 22km falloff (27km total).

3) A Brutix with 250mm railgun II's using CN antimatter does 302 dps at 18km + 15km falloff (28km total).

4) A drake with HML II's using CN scourge does 250 dps at 84.4km.

Now tell me which one of these isn't even remotely like the rest. All of these numbers are at lvl5 skills without any other mods/drones fitted and without implants. This is just the base damage on a typical damage/RoF bonused ship. Toss in the fitting requirements of these various mods and things skew more heavily in favor of HM's than they do in the above example.


They are not supposed to be "like the rest", missiles are a very different system, with advantages and disadvantages over the other types.

Assuming your numbers are correct (and they seem about right), lowest (and delayed) DPS for highest range and flexibility is what in most circles is called BALANCE.

I could perhaps understand an adjustment, but this proposed heavy triple-nerf seems over the top and I hope gets reconsidered and toned down, before they "balance" away an entire class of ships into obsolescence.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1962 - 2012-09-20 15:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomcio FromFarAway
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:

Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.



Old thread, but still relevant to the topic.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/107086/page/8


2004?
Really?
You *do* know that some mechanics have changed in those last 8 years.

Maybe try something more recent : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missiles

Quote:
As missiles do not have tracking speeds, a missile launched at a target will do the same damage if the target's speed remains the same. In other words, the damage dealt to a target orbiting the launcher at 300m/s and a target flying directly at the launcher at 300m/s will be exactly the same.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1963 - 2012-09-20 15:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
None ofthe Above wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
The HM nerf has been much needed for a long time. For all those crying over it, let's put this in perspective:

1) A Harbinger with Heavy beam laser II's using IN MF does 318 dps at 15km + 10km falloff (25km total).

2) A Hurricane with 720mm Howitzer II's using RF PP does 290 dps at 15km + 22km falloff (27km total).

3) A Brutix with 250mm railgun II's using CN antimatter does 302 dps at 18km + 15km falloff (28km total).

4) A drake with HML II's using CN scourge does 250 dps at 84.4km.

Now tell me which one of these isn't even remotely like the rest. All of these numbers are at lvl5 skills without any other mods/drones fitted and without implants. This is just the base damage on a typical damage/RoF bonused ship. Toss in the fitting requirements of these various mods and things skew more heavily in favor of HM's than they do in the above example.


They are not supposed to be "like the rest", missiles are a very different system, with advantages and disadvantages over the other types.

Assuming your numbers are correct (and they seem about right), lowest (and delayed) DPS for highest range and flexibility is what in most circles is called BALANCE.

I could perhaps understand an adjustment, but this proposed heavy triple-nerf seems over the top and I hope gets reconsidered and toned down, before they "balance" away an entire class of ships into obsolescence.


I understand what you are saying here but If you look at the caracal with the new rebalance of that ship and with the changes proposed to HM it works out very well. I think they need to try and push up balancing BC this round if they want this to go through as It will really hamstring the Drake until it can be properly balanced.

Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.

See how this works out nicely with the changes.

Thats the way to go!
Doddy
Excidium.
#1964 - 2012-09-20 15:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:


First, you are incorrect, direction has NO bearing on missile mechanics. Guns, yes, Missiles no. Non what-so-ever. If you don't believe me....go test it.

Second, you mis-understood my statement. My statement is such that...as long as you keep speed, my dps against said ship will not fluctuate. If my first volley against said ship is 1100.....then unless they change speeds or a target painter is used, every subsequent volley is going to be the same 1100.

I use missiles all the time, I don't want the nerf, and I've probably spent more time in EFT than I have in game.



I have been flying missile boats since '08. I have flown with heavy, torp, cruise, and have used t2 on all but rapid light.

I am well aware of their capabilities and have experienced it many times. Less so with heavy missiles but still occurs.

I flew a torp golem. Using javelin missiles I could 1 shot a cruiser and a frig approaching me using 2 target painters.

However, once they were in orbit it would take me at least 4 volleys to down a frig.

The reasoning for this is

If you fire at a target approaching you, the missile will explode in front of the target forcing it to fly into the explosion.

Now, when you fire at an orbitting target or a target moving away from you, then the missile will explode behind it, thus it's flying out of the explosion.

This has a direct impact on the damage you do to the target expecially with frigates and cruisers because their base speeds are equal to or faster than the explosion velocity of the missile fired at them.

So, it is you that should go test it.

I am 100% sure that you CANNOT hit an orbitting frig or cruiser for the same damage as an approaching frig/cruiser.

Also, mwd and afterburners have play as well, and with these modules, hitting them while aproaching is still going to be more effective than hitting them while they're running or orbitting.

TRUST ME... Go test it on some rats in the test server.


Sorry mate its all mwd bloom. Rats only use mwd on approach (or if they get one of those weird bugs where they mwd right out the belt) so rats moving away from you never have mwd on, hence why they can catch up with you but not get away from you (unless you are slower than thier non mwd speed). When they are in engagement range (and start orbiting) they turn mwd off same as a tackler would. Basically the only time an npc should have a mwd bloom is when they go into "chase" when they are out of range. Missile users don't get as much benefit from this as turret users who will usually hit a frig perfectly thanks to near 0 transversal during "chase" as well. The benefit missile users get from sig bloom is partially cancelled out by the fact the target is moving faster. At the same time missile users are hurt much less by the npc coming out of chase, in the case of frigs turrets can struggle to hit them at all.

If you look in the npc database you can find the points at which all npcs will enter chase or enter engagement, what the mwd speed is, how much sig bloom, etc.
None ofthe Above
#1965 - 2012-09-20 15:20:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anabaric wrote:
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool


You must be reading a different thread than I am.


Half is trying to warn this is a bad idea; almost all the other half is pure schadenfreude at the prospect of others getting nerfed. Oh yeah, a clear indication CCP is doing it right. Roll

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1966 - 2012-09-20 15:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:

Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.



Old thread, but still relevant to the topic.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/107086/page/8


2004?
Really?
You *do* know that some mechanics have changed in those last 8 years.

Maybe try something more recent : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missiles

Quote:
As missiles do not have tracking speeds, a missile launched at a target will do the same damage if the target's speed remains the same. In other words, the damage dealt to a target orbiting the launcher at 300m/s and a target flying directly at the launcher at 300m/s will be exactly the same.


Give up dude.....he's not going to agree with it. Because he doesn't realize the variables of testing on rats that obviously turn on a prop mod to get into range and then turn it off to orbit...

Whether the target is orbiting, chasing or running, game mechanics consider the missile to always hit on the center. Signature and speed are the only things that affect a missiles damage
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1967 - 2012-09-20 15:25:19 UTC
Doddy wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:


First, you are incorrect, direction has NO bearing on missile mechanics. Guns, yes, Missiles no. Non what-so-ever. If you don't believe me....go test it.

Second, you mis-understood my statement. My statement is such that...as long as you keep speed, my dps against said ship will not fluctuate. If my first volley against said ship is 1100.....then unless they change speeds or a target painter is used, every subsequent volley is going to be the same 1100.

I use missiles all the time, I don't want the nerf, and I've probably spent more time in EFT than I have in game.



I have been flying missile boats since '08. I have flown with heavy, torp, cruise, and have used t2 on all but rapid light.

I am well aware of their capabilities and have experienced it many times. Less so with heavy missiles but still occurs.

I flew a torp golem. Using javelin missiles I could 1 shot a cruiser and a frig approaching me using 2 target painters.

However, once they were in orbit it would take me at least 4 volleys to down a frig.

The reasoning for this is

If you fire at a target approaching you, the missile will explode in front of the target forcing it to fly into the explosion.

Now, when you fire at an orbitting target or a target moving away from you, then the missile will explode behind it, thus it's flying out of the explosion.

This has a direct impact on the damage you do to the target expecially with frigates and cruisers because their base speeds are equal to or faster than the explosion velocity of the missile fired at them.

So, it is you that should go test it.

I am 100% sure that you CANNOT hit an orbitting frig or cruiser for the same damage as an approaching frig/cruiser.

Also, mwd and afterburners have play as well, and with these modules, hitting them while aproaching is still going to be more effective than hitting them while they're running or orbitting.

TRUST ME... Go test it on some rats in the test server.


Sorry mate its all mwd bloom. Rats only use mwd on approach (or if they get one of those weird bugs where they mwd right out the belt) so rats moving away from you never have mwd on, hence why they can catch up with you but not get away from you (unless you are slower than thier non mwd speed). When they are in engagement range (and start orbiting) they turn mwd off same as a tackler would. Basically the only time an npc should have a mwd bloom is when they go into "chase" when they are out of range. Missile users don't get as much benefit from this as turret users who will usually hit a frig perfectly thanks to near 0 transversal during "chase" as well. The benefit missile users get from sig bloom is partially cancelled out by the fact the target is moving faster. At the same time missile users are hurt much less by the npc coming out of chase, in the case of frigs turrets can struggle to hit them at all.

If you look in the npc database you can find the points at which all npcs will enter chase or enter engagement, what the mwd speed is, how much sig bloom, etc.



Well, I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, though I've seen it happen without prop mods on the npcs, but either I didn't notice or something else was going on.

However, I'd like to get back on topic and get a response to m proposed balance on guided missiles and TDs posted here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535
Doddy
Excidium.
#1968 - 2012-09-20 15:25:30 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:

Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.



Old thread, but still relevant to the topic.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/107086/page/8


2004?
Really?
You *do* know that some mechanics have changed in those last 8 years.

Maybe try something more recent : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Missiles

Quote:
As missiles do not have tracking speeds, a missile launched at a target will do the same damage if the target's speed remains the same. In other words, the damage dealt to a target orbiting the launcher at 300m/s and a target flying directly at the launcher at 300m/s will be exactly the same.


Give up dude.....he's not going to agree with it. Because he doesn't realize the variables of testing on rats that obviously turn on a prop mod to get into range and then turn it off to orbit...


On the other hand he has reminded me about old school missiles that could catch a target but were not agile enough to hit them and did the crazy zig-zag pattern missing behind them until thier flight time elapsed (inty being chased by cruise for example). glory days.
SalubriousSky Rinah
Cryptic Spear
#1969 - 2012-09-20 15:27:18 UTC
DEVs: will the changes to missiles also take place for the NPC portion of the game (I realise some races use different kinds of missiles). Our corp and players enjoy the PVE side of things and funnily enough we have trained up Drakes and Tengu's to do just that...so, will PVE become that bit more challenging?
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1970 - 2012-09-20 15:31:02 UTC
Doddy wrote:

On the other hand he has reminded me about old school missiles that could catch a target but were not agile enough to hit them and did the crazy zig-zag pattern missing behind them until thier flight time elapsed (inty being chased by cruise for example). glory days.


That must have been funny sightLol
Sometimes I really regret unsubbing 8 years ago.Sad
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1971 - 2012-09-20 15:31:45 UTC
SalubriousSky Rinah wrote:
DEVs: will the changes to missiles also take place for the NPC portion of the game (I realise some races use different kinds of missiles). Our corp and players enjoy the PVE side of things and funnily enough we have trained up Drakes and Tengu's to do just that...so, will PVE become that bit more challenging?


Hopefully they'll throw out the idea, like they should. Then it wouldn't effect you. But yes, if those changes are made, they will affect you.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#1972 - 2012-09-20 15:32:44 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:

IMO, tracking disruptors are already OP and the only thing that has kept them somewhat in line was the chance of encountering a missile boat or two while roaming. Separate modules for disrupting turrets and missiles is the way to go here. Maybe even a different module altogether.


This, exactly.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1973 - 2012-09-20 15:36:05 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Anabaric wrote:
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool




You wouldn't be a politician in real life would you?? The OP has got so far 58 likes in a thread that contains nearly 2000 posts.


Say what?

How on earth is a conversation with 2000 posts directly comparable to the number of likes on the original post?

Tell you what, I'll buy your house from you for 20 shiny nickels. After all, 20 is far more than 1 isn't it?


I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1974 - 2012-09-20 15:38:05 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Anabaric wrote:
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool




You wouldn't be a politician in real life would you?? The OP has got so far 58 likes in a thread that contains nearly 2000 posts.


Say what?

How on earth is a conversation with 2000 posts directly comparable to the number of likes on the original post?

Tell you what, I'll buy your house from you for 20 shiny nickels. After all, 20 is far more than 1 isn't it?




Don't be so hard on him. He just sucks at math.
Oleszka
Syntropia Of Avatara
#1975 - 2012-09-20 15:41:19 UTC
I have a quastion about the effect of skills.

If we learn gunnery skills like "Rapid Fireing", this skill effects all Turret kinds but if we skill only missiles "Rapid Launcher", this is only effecting missiles, but the collection of turrets is much bigger than the collection of launchers, so you punish the caldari characters and all players which are skilling missiles.

in my opinion you are damaging more with you rebalancing idea than you try to fix.

btw. we have two different typs of skill trees in weapons but gunnery skills are good for all factions and missiles are only effecting more caldari ships. That means player which are skilling caldari ships need much more time to fly other ships(like Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar).

... and if you apply the effect of TDs to missiles you have to apply the effect of the "Rapid Launcher" Skill on Turrets and cancel all missile skills beause there is no difference any more!


why in hell you dont make the defender missile more effectiv, dose you great statistic not say no one is using it?

**EvE-Movie, take a look and enjoy it **PushMe
Eckyy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1976 - 2012-09-20 15:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eckyy
After further consideration, I feel that it's the bonuses on missile ships that is broken, rather than the damage output of missiles. Consider this: in the early days of the game, CCP rarely gave lasers any kind of damage or RoF bonus because the weapon system did a base damage way higher than the other weapon systems. Instead, they gave laser ships a bonus that would make them able to use lasers effectively - cap use.

Sure, you could stick a rack of Tachs on a Tempest, but you'd be cap-dead in 30 seconds.

Recently CCP has just throwing damage / RoF bonuses (or both!) on every ship, which has the disadvantage of homogenizing fittings. One way of looking at it is that the reason the Drake does out-of-line DPS is because it's bonuses are broken. If CCP changes the Drake's kinetic bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius, or both, they'll have achieved the same end as reducing its DPS by 20%, without hurting every other ship that fits missiles as a secondary weapon system.

Changing the bonuses on the Drake and Tengu to non-direct-damage bonuses would definitely bring those two ships in-line.

By doing the raw-dps nerf, CCP effectively kills heavy missiles as a secondary weapon system.

______________


As for the range nerf, I fell it isn't a bad move to cut the base range of missiles and then make a module that affects range. I don't personally like the idea of making tracking disruptors universal, but I feel that's a debatable topic.

Additionally, I support swapping the fitting requirements of heavies and HAMs, or at least adjusting them, so a Drake has to make some fitting concessions for its long range weapon system. It's obvious that missiles are no longer really an effective secondary weapon system so it might not be unreasonable to actually buff their damage slightly (especially HAMs) after changing the bonuses on missile ships.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1977 - 2012-09-20 15:42:55 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Posting this again because I feel it's a good suggest instead of the proposed nerfs and put ALL guided missiles in line with other weapons systems

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
OK, I'm going to throw out some numbers.

This is going to be all skills lvl 5 and I'll use the 4 tier 2 bc's with their respective weapon systems, with boh t2 ammo types, and drones for the Myrmidon since that is it's specialty.

Now, one thing that will be different is I will use my proposed change to missiles.

That is,

PRECISION WILL BE LONG RANGE AND FURY WILL BE SHORT RANGE.

This is on par with how every other weapon system is balanced. Greater range means less dps.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not adding faction or t1 ammo because these will need to be balanced similar to unguided missiles, and I don't feel like doing that myself.

However, if you would like to do that, than just use unguided missiles as an example (i.e. the precentage difference between t1 and faction compared to t2 will be roughly equal)

Ok, here it goes (no other modules)

{ammo - dps @ range}

Drake
Hams II
Rage - 349 @ 18.1
Javelin - 197 @ 30.4

Hml II - (with my proposed swap in ranges)
Fury - 224 @ 42.2
Precision - 189 @ 75.9

Hurricane
425mm AC II
Hail - 417 @ 1.5+9 = 10.5
Barrage - 298 @ 3+18 = 21

720mm HA II
Quake - 294 @ 7.5 + 22 = 29.5
Tremor - 168 @ 54 + 22 = 77

Harbinger
Heavy Pulse II
Conflagration - 406 @ 7.5 + 5 = 12.5
Scorch - 290 @ 23 + 5 = 28

Heavy Beam II
Gleam - 323 @ 7.5 + 10 = 17.5
Aurora - 184 @ 54 + 10 = 64

Myrmidon
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Void - 341 @ 3.4 + 3.1 = 6.5
Null - 244 @ 6.3 + 8.8 = 15.1

250mm Railgun II
Javelin - 210 @ 9 + 15 = 24
Spike - 120 @ 65 + 15 = 80

With 5 x t2 medium drones each set gets plus 238 dps @ up to 60km with all skills lvl 5.

close range high damage
The drake has the greatest range by 5.6km to 11.6km
Has lowest dps by 230 to 57

high damage with range
Drake has greatet range by 2.4km to 15.3km
Lowest dps by 285 dps to 93 dps

(REMEMBER, THESE NEXT TWO ARE WITH MY PROPOSED SWAP TO GUIDED MISSILES)
Long range high damage
Drake has greatest range by 12.7km to 24.7km
But lowest dps by 224dps to 70 dps

Max range
Drake has 3rd greatest range being 4.1km from the top, and 11.9km from the bottom
Drake has greatest dps by 69 to 5 dps (behind by 169 @ up to 60km from myrm drones & turrets)


Now, the myrmidon shines in dps up to 60 km and has the greatest possible range @ 80km, but lowest dps at max range

The drake has the highest range until max range, but the highest dps at max range, but by substationally less dps than it is overpowered by in other ranges.

Now, when you consider my suggested change of swapping fury and precision ranges for all guided missiles, these weapon systems actually seem fairly balanced apart from hybrids on a myrm, but it makes up for it with drones.


I think this would negate the need for a range AND dps nerf to heavy missiles.

Instead, then needed nerfs could be aimed directly at the tengu and drake themselves.

Perhaps drop the drake shield recharge rate so that it can't fit a passive tank as effectively as it does.

With the tengu, drop its range bonuses, and reduce cpu and pg so that it can't fit 100mn afterburners and so that it has tochoose between dps or tank.

BOOM!!! besides balancing faction and t1 guided missiles, the drake and tengu are balanced and guided missiles become balanced in the same manner as every other weapon system.



To add to this, perhaps they could do the same with T.D.s that they do with jammers.

That is, make them racial.
Develop a T.D. that is anti race.

So, if you're fitting TD against gravimetric, then you're going to be more effective at disrupting Caldari ships but unusable against everything else.

Or, you could fit multispectrum disruptors that are effective against all types, but much less effective as a racial on specific race.

Again, just like jammers.


This coupled with my suggested change to guided missiles is actually pretty fair.

Missiles become reasonable damage at long range, and TDs don't become an I win button.


I'm gonna go with ^this^

A dps at range nerf is better than a dps and range nerf.
Eckyy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1978 - 2012-09-20 15:45:25 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:


This is all paper numbers though. As a decently experienced frigate pilot, I can tell you that you can mitigate a Drake's DPS incredibly. I will and do buy X-instinct boosters to reduce my signature radius, and thus their damage. I do manually pilot in order to make sure I am moving perpendicular to the incoming missile, and I also make sure I am AB'ing above their explosion velocity. What does this all lead up to? A tackled Drake (which has NONE of the utility highs and mids for neuts and webs, like the Cane) and me ASB'ing to tank it. And then my fleet warps in and kills it. "But what if it is 84km away?". Then I can simply warp off. What? It's a Drake blob? I'll see those heavy missiles next year. The delay between launch and damage application really does matter.

By converse, if a Hurricane or Harbinger is at range and hits my little frigate, it is hit. Arty Cane literally wipes it away from the field.


Now, I've written all of this from the perspective of a frigate pilot. I'd imagine BC pilots could also simply warp away, but then why wouldn't a proper BC gang have frig tackle support to hold the Drake(s) down? I really am baffled. People are crying about how OP HMLs are because they're comparing a single BC to another BC. 1v1 is incredibly uncommon these days, so I see no reason to base a nerf or major game mechanics change off of one-to-one comparisons. I'm sorry if you want your Hurricane to be able to kill everything in a 1v1 scenario, but no ship in the game has the capability to always win against everything. They're not thinking of smallgang or fleet scenarios at all.

Don't nerf HMLs. Nerf the ships that are OP. And most of all people, stop thinking 1v1 only. It just doesn't happen much.



HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
This is wrong.

Missiles do not always hit targets for the same damage.

I will hit a stationary target harder than a moving target and I'll hit an approaching target harder than I'll hit an orbiting target.
Also, they'll hit a wmd battleship harder than a bs with no prop mod, and them less so than an afterburner bs.
Now, they'll hit a frig, but less so a frig with an afterburner, and no chance of hitting a mwd frig in orbit.

So, anyone who says missiles always hit for the same damage has either never used missiles, has no clue what they're talking about, or are making things up just to ensure a missile nerf



I bold-italicized two bits that I have a question about - have missile mechanics changed since I left the game a few years ago that make it so you take more damage by flying into a missile than by flying perpendicular to it? Several people who've posted in this thread seem to be under that impression.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1979 - 2012-09-20 15:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Terik Deatharbingr
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Doddy wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:


First, you are incorrect, direction has NO bearing on missile mechanics. Guns, yes, Missiles no. Non what-so-ever. If you don't believe me....go test it.

Second, you mis-understood my statement. My statement is such that...as long as you keep speed, my dps against said ship will not fluctuate. If my first volley against said ship is 1100.....then unless they change speeds or a target painter is used, every subsequent volley is going to be the same 1100.

I use missiles all the time, I don't want the nerf, and I've probably spent more time in EFT than I have in game.



I have been flying missile boats since '08. I have flown with heavy, torp, cruise, and have used t2 on all but rapid light.

I am well aware of their capabilities and have experienced it many times. Less so with heavy missiles but still occurs.

I flew a torp golem. Using javelin missiles I could 1 shot a cruiser and a frig approaching me using 2 target painters.

However, once they were in orbit it would take me at least 4 volleys to down a frig.

The reasoning for this is

If you fire at a target approaching you, the missile will explode in front of the target forcing it to fly into the explosion.

Now, when you fire at an orbitting target or a target moving away from you, then the missile will explode behind it, thus it's flying out of the explosion.

This has a direct impact on the damage you do to the target expecially with frigates and cruisers because their base speeds are equal to or faster than the explosion velocity of the missile fired at them.

So, it is you that should go test it.

I am 100% sure that you CANNOT hit an orbitting frig or cruiser for the same damage as an approaching frig/cruiser.

Also, mwd and afterburners have play as well, and with these modules, hitting them while aproaching is still going to be more effective than hitting them while they're running or orbitting.

TRUST ME... Go test it on some rats in the test server.


Sorry mate its all mwd bloom. Rats only use mwd on approach (or if they get one of those weird bugs where they mwd right out the belt) so rats moving away from you never have mwd on, hence why they can catch up with you but not get away from you (unless you are slower than thier non mwd speed). When they are in engagement range (and start orbiting) they turn mwd off same as a tackler would. Basically the only time an npc should have a mwd bloom is when they go into "chase" when they are out of range. Missile users don't get as much benefit from this as turret users who will usually hit a frig perfectly thanks to near 0 transversal during "chase" as well. The benefit missile users get from sig bloom is partially cancelled out by the fact the target is moving faster. At the same time missile users are hurt much less by the npc coming out of chase, in the case of frigs turrets can struggle to hit them at all.

If you look in the npc database you can find the points at which all npcs will enter chase or enter engagement, what the mwd speed is, how much sig bloom, etc.



Well, I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong, though I've seen it happen without prop mods on the npcs, but either I didn't notice or something else was going on.

However, I'd like to get back on topic and get a response to m proposed balance on guided missiles and TDs posted here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947535#post1947535


without completely revamping game mechanics, I think the damage and range equal out depending on the situation. Now, if they want to bump T2 missiles to have the same exact range as the T1 and faction equivalents...an d even still....it drops the range from 84k to 63k, which is effectively less than 60k.

Now, as far as your proposition, ok, add TD, but remove defender missiles and the ability to SB incoming missiles...and add mods to improve "tracking" of missiles...

Riddle me this...
What does it tell you when I say that I can fit a Proteus with a better tracking and a better tank....as a shield tank....only losing a little agility? Now you tell me is the problem with Missiles...or is it a matter of shield tanking versus armor tanking...mind you....the prot doesn't have bonuses to shield tanking and DOES to armor tanking

Edit: Also, Faction Armor mods versus T2 shield mods
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1980 - 2012-09-20 15:51:58 UTC
lol 100 pages