These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

First post First post First post
Author
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2012-09-20 15:02:28 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
will FW NPCs receive special treatment?


Special in what way? Why would we?


i suppose they have now jobs like defend the beacon, don't interfere with pvp etc while still being able to kill pve fitted sigtankers.
or am i wrong?

otherwise people will just use two alts to farm them. one to pull the npcs away and one to orbit the plex. (if they switch targets, switch jobs)


Right now they are really dumb and all just shoot the first thing they can. Even if there is PvP they will stomp right on over to the first target they can. That being said there are changes coming to FW from other teams that I can't talk about but can say to keep an eye out for.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2012-09-20 15:03:10 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only?


To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Nickabocka Glory
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-09-20 15:03:35 UTC
What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?

Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#64 - 2012-09-20 15:03:38 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I love the changes. I hope this is just one of several to the NPC AI as it is very much in need of an overhaul. I had put up a discussion about making a few sites out in null to be more like incursion sites to break up the boorishness of running anoms but this is a great first step.

While we are talking about Brains. Can any of you comment about the brain in a box idea talked about at fan fest will we be seeing this in the winter to at a later date.


Which brain in a box idea is this? I have heard of a few...



It'll be the one to reduce the session change time, when you jump, by keeping all the pilot details separate, rather than torn down, the brought back up.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2012-09-20 15:03:44 UTC
MIrple wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I love the changes. I hope this is just one of several to the NPC AI as it is very much in need of an overhaul. I had put up a discussion about making a few sites out in null to be more like incursion sites to break up the boorishness of running anoms but this is a great first step.

While we are talking about Brains. Can any of you comment about the brain in a box idea talked about at fan fest will we be seeing this in the winter to at a later date.


Which brain in a box idea is this? I have heard of a few...


The one that was geared at our skill set causing lag when docking/undocking and jumping through gates.


Oh, that one. Not something that is even close to my area so cannot even being to say anything about it.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2012-09-20 15:05:02 UTC
Nickabocka Glory wrote:
What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?

Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value.


This should not really make them that much harder to kill, actually it is not changing their tank or DPS at all. So killing time should not change.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#67 - 2012-09-20 15:05:28 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only?


To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.


There are ways to tank this with a subcap ship you either need small sig and speed or a Command Ship or Heavy Dictor with logi support. I am sure there might be other ways but these are two ways to deal with this. The capital is just the quickest way as you have enough damage to kill it quickly.
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-09-20 15:06:22 UTC
Sounds really interesting and will definitely try this out. Also, I don't think there's any massive issue when playing together with newer players.

Over the last few months I've ran missions with lots of new pilots, many who just jumped into their first cruiser.

Sure, we usually kept the aggro on the Battleships and Battlecruisers, but even then, it sometime happened they targeted the "li'l buddy". But then? He can just warp off and return (or try to tank the damage).

IMO these changes are even an advantage for such occassions: It should now be even less likely for fresh spawning Battlecruisers/Battleships to immeditely target and try to pop that poor guy that wanted to have a look at Level 4 missions with his Frigate or Cruiser.



Different Question:
Could you use this AI iteration to improve the behavior of NPC Industrials a bit? I'm talking about the usual Personnel Transporters in some missions. I always feel it's rather dumb to see them charging player ships, rather than trying to stay away. They can't outrun players anyway, so this would be a nice addition and it would look less suicidal. :)

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.

Sturmwolke
#69 - 2012-09-20 15:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks Twisted

As for the drones issue, you have a mechanism to save them (by re-calling and re-launching) but it's too archaic/clunky/fidgety for extended use.
Fix this and it'll alleviate some of the major issues facing drone boats. I propose an auto-recall function when drone hits a user specified amount of dmg but keep the launch/re-launch manual.

Edit: This also looks like another indirect nerf to L4 income if it changes L4 missioning in such a way that it affects the avg pilot's completion time.
The lessons from the incursion changes are still fresh in mind.
Mors Magne
Terra Incognita
#70 - 2012-09-20 15:07:33 UTC
This is why I keep subscribing to Eve Online - it's the constant improvements.

AI is a really important aspect of gameplay.

The more interesting the AI is the better.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#71 - 2012-09-20 15:08:26 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Will they pod? Twisted


I tried man, I tried. :( Something about us losing subscribers or something about angering our players instead of making them happy.


My suggestion to just put this live and not tell anyone or even put it in the patch notes was also rejected.

It would have been hilarious... Sad
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-09-20 15:12:38 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks Twisted

Why? IMO what makes Sleepers and (Incursion) Sansha more dangerous than the usual pirates are their stats: Speed, Health and Damage. That's nothing touched by just switching the underlying AI, considering most people run missions solo or in small groups only anyway. It might screw up people flying AFK drone boats, but at the same time it's something you shouldn't do anyway (why pay to play a game, when you don't even play then?).

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.

Chaunnay Solette
Horngry
#73 - 2012-09-20 15:12:53 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Nickabocka Glory wrote:
What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?

Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value.


This should not really make them that much harder to kill, actually it is not changing their tank or DPS at all. So killing time should not change.


Unless your're having to recall your heavies every three minutes. :)
I guess we'll have to wait and see what the drone hate looks like.
(Currently, NPCs will aggro on drones in many l4s... are we talking about generally the same aggro across all missions now? more? less?)

Thanks Fox!
Rezard
Fornax Chemica
Zaibatsu Mercantile
#74 - 2012-09-20 15:13:35 UTC
I'll start manufacturing all the ravens that will die to this, tho probably drones should be more valuable haha.

I personally like the idea and support this a lot, it will be a game changer for something that has become static and plain repetitive.

Some suggestion: Please please please tell your people to make a shortcut to launch drones, and that is!

I think the logistic pilots and drones will have to look out for themselves now, while solo players or spider tankers will be a new approach!
Deathwing Reborn
#75 - 2012-09-20 15:15:12 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Ok, now that you are making normal NPC's more interesting. When are you going to finally make something that will make things fun for ratting in Capitals? There are plenty of people that rat in carriers in Null Sec, that are fighting waves of NPCs that can be taken out in a single battleship. When are we going to start to see NPC capitals on the field or new sites in 0.0 that will make things challenging for someone in a carrier again?

The horde sites in the drone regions used to be decent because you could pop all the bunkers and have enough NPC dps to actually threaten your carrier if you wernt careful. Now its just a joke. There are many missions where NPCs are building capitals but we never see them to shoot them. And for those who will moan at grinding NPC capital HP, you could always continue with the current easy mode sites.


To be honest we need to make our PvE content more enjoyable for everyone first. While this step will hopefully help, there is a lot more work to be done. Continuing the honesty I don't think the ratting capitals are our highest priority. Hopefully we can continue to make changes that effect most everyone though and not focus to much on one segment.



That is a typical response that I would expect from CCP by this point. I received the same type of answer when the drone regions lost drone alloys and they were not replaced with anything at all. "Right now we have better things to spend our time on than spend 1 day to create or copy a loot table." Just one more instance of making a good iteration on something and then leaving it done half arsed.

Capital pilots aside, since you are making changes to the AI again why can you not make an AI for NPC capitals and make some more interesting content? There are too few missions / complexes that require more that 1 person in a sub cap to complete.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#76 - 2012-09-20 15:16:09 UTC
Pretty cool.

I'm presuming the NPC rat AI as it is currently has been this way since time immemorial, right? If so, I guess it would be reasonable to assume that all missions, complexes and anoms since then have been designed by Devs based around the way NPCs have always worked.

With the new NPC AI templates for these everyday NPCs, are you guys going to keep in mind the possibility that a specific mission, complex or anom's "reasonableness" might be drastically altered beyond the what's intended because of its specific layout or NPC size grouping?

I like these changes, just from a design standpoint I'm presuming that current dungeon difficulty is based on current NPC behavior... and now this is going to take that design flow and reverse... something which usually brings highly unintended side effects.

/T
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-09-20 15:16:21 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Nickabocka Glory wrote:
What will happen to the risk reward balance of high, low and null sec NPCs?

Making NPCs harder sounds like fun but the extra time and effort required to kill them needs to be reflected in their value.


This should not really make them that much harder to kill, actually it is not changing their tank or DPS at all. So killing time should not change.

And could lead to hilarity regarding ninja salvagers, canflippers and suicide gankers when the rats attack them...

thusly making Hi-Sec safer yet?


TIME WILL TELL!

Lol

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2012-09-20 15:16:24 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks Twisted

As for the drones issue, you have a mechanism to save them (by re-calling and re-launching) but it's too archaic/clunky/fidgety for extended use.
Fix this and it'll alleviate some of the major issues facing drone boats. I propose an auto-recall function when drone hits a user specified amount of dmg but keep the launch/re-launch manual.

Edit: This also looks like another indirect nerf to L4 income if it changes L4 missioning in such a way that it affects the avg pilot's completion time.
The lessons from the incursion changes are still fresh in mind.


Shift+R recalls drones... I do agree though that system needs some work. We will be keeping an eye on the income generated from L4 missions as we do have graphs and statistics for this. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#79 - 2012-09-20 15:16:25 UTC
Fantastic news, long overdue!

Let's hope this is but the first step towards genuinely challenging PvE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#80 - 2012-09-20 15:17:16 UTC
This sounds both hilarious, and superb. It's been a long time coming...

I know you don't have time, at the moment, to tweak individual missions, but when you do... Please look at making spawn-triggers less predictable.