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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Iyica de Tylmarand
Doomheim
#321 - 2012-09-20 09:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyica de Tylmarand
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Iyica de Tylmarand wrote:
The will the bonus changes flow through to HACs? I.e. will the Deimos get a tracking bonus and will the Vagabond get two fall off bonuses? Or will HACs be dealt with in a seperate patch?


Also, if the missile changes are implemented, HML caracals I feel will be left behind. Yes additional BCUs will make up for the damage nerf of HMs, but that just means it stays roughly the same while all the other t1 cruisers get buffed. Frig killing Rapid Light Caracals on the other hand will see significantly more use.


How will the Caracal fall behind? HMLs are still good compared to other long range weapon systems.

It is unrealistic to expect HMLs to compete with close range weapon systems at close ranges.
The reason why people (or at least myself) expect HMLs to compete with other close range weapons systems is because unfortunately the HAM falls short in that comparison. If HAMs were given a slight buff, then I'd be fine with this. But if the other thread about the missile changes is to be believed, that isn't happening thus far.
Gelvina
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2012-09-20 09:28:27 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Gelvina wrote:
From a skill entry point to these ships I believe the stabber is the hardest to train for.
(for noobs that is offcourse)

firstly you need to train up to tech2 medium autocannons to get barrage.
Which already requires a lot of time for a new player I think (was a long time ago)
Now to properly fly it you require descent missile skills as well?

I know minmatar is in many ships guns+missiles and I like that.
But for this stabber wouldn't it make more sense to maybe give it 1 more turret slot?
I mean its the baby brother to the vaga and you don't need missiles for the vagabond.

Am I making sense?


The other cruisers gets 5 bonused turrets and the stabber gets 4 + 2 missile launchers, if you want to give it a fifth slot you will have to remove the launcher altogether to balance it and that just makes it the same as the others.
I like this mix and think it should stay. Remember that 4 turrets + 2 neuts is also very powerful.


I suppose your right.
I guess 2 badly skilled tech1 launchers can make up for not having a 5th turret. (compared to low skilled turrets at least)
And then at good skills stabber becomes quite good with 4 guns + 2 launchers.

At 285 velocity this little stabber will be awesome!
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#323 - 2012-09-20 10:16:32 UTC
Quote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Gelvina wrote:
From a skill entry point to these ships I believe the stabber is the hardest to train for.
(for noobs that is offcourse)

firstly you need to train up to tech2 medium autocannons to get barrage.
Which already requires a lot of time for a new player I think (was a long time ago)
Now to properly fly it you require descent missile skills as well?

I know minmatar is in many ships guns+missiles and I like that.
But for this stabber wouldn't it make more sense to maybe give it 1 more turret slot?
I mean its the baby brother to the vaga and you don't need missiles for the vagabond.

Am I making sense?


The other cruisers gets 5 bonused turrets and the stabber gets 4 + 2 missile launchers, if you want to give it a fifth slot you will have to remove the launcher altogether to balance it and that just makes it the same as the others.
I like this mix and think it should stay. Remember that 4 turrets + 2 neuts is also very powerful.]


What you miss is that the stabber has probably another role than the other cruisers. It is more a big frigate than a cruiser and I also suppose that it is either designed to kite other cruisers or to kill frigs (especially T2 slow ones).
It is not meant to stand face to face against another cruisers.
I have to admit that speed is unbelievable important in PVP an CCP misses it often.
The new stabber will be superb. For example: Did you ever tried to kill a dram? Haha. Either you get killed or it simply burns away.
Alara IonStorm
#324 - 2012-09-20 10:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:

What you miss is that the stabber has probably another role than the other cruisers. It is more a big frigate than a cruiser and I also suppose that it is either designed to kite other cruisers or to kill frigs (especially T2 slow ones).
It is not meant to stand face to face against another cruisers.
I have to admit that speed is unbelievable important in PVP an CCP misses it often.
The new stabber will be superb. For example: Did you ever tried to kill a dram? Haha. Either you get killed or it simply burns away.

Yeah with 5 turrets and a Drone Bay it could not stand toe to toe with any of these Cruisers. People from using Double DPS Bonused Medium Projectiles have somehow gotten the mistaken idea that they can do a lot of Dmg. The Stabber has been pretty much unused and it has not received a speed increase at all, only all of its competition has, it is just to low Dmg to really see a lot of use.

This thing is going to be 300 or so DPS and lose some of that in falloff, the new Bellicose or if CCP which said they are not changing much on it the Rupture will be the main Minmatar Kiters despite the lower speed. It won't come close in Dmg to the other 3 with a proper Drone Bay and 5th Turret, but it will be usable at the least.

I don't mind if they cut a little speed from the thing if they have too in exchange for a bit of Dmg. I would rather have that then a redux of what we have now that is only slightly better but used for the most part.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#325 - 2012-09-20 10:42:32 UTC
Quote:
Yeah with 5 turrets and a Drone Bay it could not stand toe to toe with any of these Cruisers. People from using Double DPS Bonused Medium Projectiles have somehow gotten the mistaken idea that they can do a lot of Dmg. The Stabber has been pretty much unused and it has not received a speed increase at all, only all of its competition has, it is just to low Dmg to really see a lot of use.

This thing is going to be 300 or so DPS and lose some of that in falloff, the new Bellicose or if CCP which said they are not changing much on it the Rupture will be the main Minmatar Kiters despite the lower speed. It won't come close in Dmg to the other 3 with a proper Drone Bay and 5th Turret, but it will be usable at the least.

I don't mind if they cut a little speed from the thing if they have too in exchange for a bit of Dmg. I would rather have that then a redux of what we have now that is only slightly better but used for the most part.


What the hell? 300dps and this speed would be far too much. For example the NEW caracal can be happy if it can do 350 dps with HAMs in a really tight fit (2 reactor control unit 2, 2 ballistic control sys) without THAT speed.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-09-20 10:55:29 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
What the hell? 300dps and this speed would be far too much. For example the NEW caracal can be happy if it can do 350 dps with HAMs in a really tight fit (2 reactor control unit 2, 2 ballistic control sys) without THAT speed.


Not quite sure what you're saying about future Caracal here, but it will be able to fit HAMs, MWD and LSE with a single ACR, for 396 DPS excluding drones (CN, triple BCS).
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#327 - 2012-09-20 11:01:44 UTC
Quote:
Not quite sure what you're saying about future Caracal here, but it will be able to fit HAMs, MWD and LSE with a single ACR, for 396 DPS excluding drones (CN, triple BCS).


If you like suicidal paper tank then yes.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#328 - 2012-09-20 11:03:31 UTC
Try fewer LSEs and more TDs.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#329 - 2012-09-20 11:07:36 UTC
As a fast cruiser being good at chasing down frigates and destroyers I think a 20 or 25 m3 drone limit would be excellent.
4-5 light drones is a serious thing, that doesn't step into Gallente territory too much (Gallente cruisers almost all use 4-5 medium drones)
Alara IonStorm
#330 - 2012-09-20 11:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:

What the hell? 300dps and this speed would be far too much. For example the NEW caracal can be happy if it can do 350 dps with HAMs in a really tight fit (2 reactor control unit 2, 2 ballistic control sys) without THAT speed.

Take a look at the stats you only need 1 RCU or ACR to fit a rack of HAM's + MWD + LSE and your paper DPS is forgetting falloff not to mention the Caracals greater range in general.

That aside pop over to the EWAR thread and take a gander at the Bellicose with 4 Launchers and a 40m3 Drone Bay with greater speed then the Caracal.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:

If you like suicidal paper tank then yes.

Stronger tank then the Stabber. Stabber already has the speed now and surprise no one is using it. People use the Rupture to kite instead.

I don't mind if they keep the weapons layout so much as give it a Rupture sized drone bay.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#331 - 2012-09-20 11:39:03 UTC
The RLML caracal is going to be massively better than the HML variant under the new system.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#332 - 2012-09-20 12:02:26 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
The RLML caracal is going to be massively better than the HML variant under the new system.


This. Around 15% lower paper dps. But all of it will be applied to a decent range. Also will kill frigs with ease
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#333 - 2012-09-20 12:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Quote:
Take a look at the stats you only need 1 RCU or ACR to fit a rack of HAM's + MWD + LSE and your paper DPS is forgetting falloff not to mention the Caracals greater range in general.

That aside pop over to the EWAR thread and take a gander at the Bellicose with 4 Launchers and a 40m3 Drone Bay with greater speed then the Caracal.

You forget that ham dps is also only paper dps.

Quote:
Stronger tank then the Stabber. Stabber already has the speed now and surprise no one is using it. People use the Rupture to kite instead.

I don't mind if they keep the weapons layout so much as give it a Rupture sized drone bay.


Kiting Ruptures? never saw something like this. And I see tons of rutures daily. The Rupture is actually THE ship for face to face and not kiting. And yes me and my corp have daily problems with really fast stabbers and SFIs.
What CCP and the other people always forget is the Minmatar advantage:
You are fast so if you don´t want to get engaged you burn out.
If you want to engage and have a good possibility to win you burn in and the foe is mostly SIGNIFICANT slower than you so you have a good chance to catch.
Actually these nano fitted stabbers, SFIs and cynabals are faster than most attack frigates and kill them in seconds.
We are somtimes sitting in fleet at gate with 12 ships. SFI in and burns out. 2 ceptors burn after him, try to catch and die in seconds.
Minmatar speed is an awesome advantage.

And forget useless missiles when Minnie cruisers burn with 3500m/s and have arty alpha like hell.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2012-09-20 12:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Some fits for the new Omen:

[Omen, New HPL]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Membrane

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x4

EHP: 20k (estimated)
DPS: 429 (Scorch), 511 (Navy MF)
Speed: 1600 m/s (estimated)



[Omen, New FMP]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x4

Needs a low end CPU implant.
EHP: 36k (estimated)
DPS: 385 (Scorch), 456 (Navy MF)
Speed: 1400 m/s (estimated)



[Omen, New HPL 800mm plate]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x4

Needs a low end PG implant
EHP: 24.7k (estimated)
DPS: 429 (Scorch), 511 (Navy MF)
Speed: 1584 m/s (estimated)


[Omen, New HPL LSE]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Valkyrie II x4

EHP: 18k (estimated)
DPS: 469 (Scorch), 562 (Navy MF)
Speed: 2039 m/s (estimated)


The 400mm plate fit is made obsolete by the LSE fit. Even the 800mm plate fit is a questionable choice. The 1600mm plate fit has a good dps/range/ehp ratio but approaches battlecruiser speeds.

Bring on the armor rig changes.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#335 - 2012-09-20 14:11:43 UTC
I am very excited to get to try all these great ships. Roaming around null in T1 gang killing everyone will be a blast. The only thing that will be a pain is that clones will cost more then the ships. :(
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#336 - 2012-09-20 15:54:30 UTC
This is the most awesome change I've seen in eve ever. I'm beyond excited. It's like every major ship issue the majority of people complain about was heard and addressed by every balance update thus far.

Especially excited for making lasers actually possible to fit without going way under-sized. Also the Omen becoming a mean machine rather than a joke. I fly amarr so I'm really happy to see that all the amarr issues are being handled well.


The only single thing I would like to see that isn't there is a progression line for using missiles with Amarr. There are several crazy good T2 amarr missile ships but really no T1 to be stepping stones to them. Maybe just a few tweaks to the inquisitor and then a T1 cruiser with missile bonuses and a few launchers. perhaps even the maller since the omen is going to be a laser beast.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#337 - 2012-09-20 16:09:22 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:

Get serious :)

Almost no one is using the Caracal today, and for bloody good reason. Now they are talking a 20% damage nerf plus the addition of added damage reduction in the form of TD's.

You have a mediocre tank, DPS half that of an AF, no neut, two small drones, and it's not even particularly fast.... What exactly are you gonna kill with it?

Again, people aren't using it NOW. Why in God's name would they use it when every other cruiser and frigate in the game just got significantly better while this ship got nerfed?


Because the Caracal was massively boosted and not nerfed?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#338 - 2012-09-20 16:15:38 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Try fewer LSEs and more TDs.


Man the Caracal is gonna ******* own:
- Good DPS
- Great projection
- Superior damage application (TE/TC changes)
- Solid tank
- So Much Ewar!
- Fast as ****
- Doesn't give a **** about its own speed or transversal

I figure it's going to generally come in two flavors:
- HAM Caracal
- AML Caracal

You won't see HML Caracals unless you're trying to shoot **** from outside gate gun range or something. In which case you will use a Tornado.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#339 - 2012-09-20 16:25:25 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Some fits for the new Omen:


Damn, those fits are a little bit sad. I don't think I'd take any of them into combat over a Thorax or Caracal. Even the shield fit is only going to have range advantage for 2-3 seconds against a MWD Thorax and it'll just be straight outranged by the Stabber and Caracal.

I guess I'll continue the boost crusade.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#340 - 2012-09-20 16:32:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Try fewer LSEs and more TDs.


Man the Caracal is gonna ******* own:
- Good DPS
- Great projection
- Superior damage application (TE/TC changes)
- Solid tank
- So Much Ewar!
- Fast as ****
- Doesn't give a **** about its own speed or transversal

I figure it's going to generally come in two flavors:
- HAM Caracal
- AML Caracal

You won't see HML Caracals unless you're trying to shoot **** from outside gate gun range or something. In which case you will use a Tornado.

-Liang


Yeah, I'm getting pretty excited about the Caracal. I can only theory craft so well without knowing all the stats for sure (about fury lights, that is) but so far I'm thinking it'll be one great ship. Excellent frigate killer and a decent kiting Fury Light boat.

I'm really psyched and I can't wait for the patch.