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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#1861 - 2012-09-20 07:36:02 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Katharina B wrote:
If CCP is changing TD to have an effect against missiles; CCP MUST delete defender missiles. If they do not do this the most missions will be unplayable for Caldari Pilots!


How so?
Aren't Sansha the only rats that TD you in missions?
That's about 6% of mission rats.
6% =/= most

Stop exaggerating.

The fact that you do not know what I am doing and how am I doing it says everything. Abandon all mission against highsec and consider to fly in a space with mainly sanshas than come on with your 6%. Roll
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#1862 - 2012-09-20 07:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Sunset
Rommiee wrote:
Travis117 wrote:
Ima wait and see most likely sell my tengus for a proteus
................................................................


Dude, no one will buy your Tengu after this
I'll buy it. Uh um 50m including subs? I'll keep it for exploration when I'm expecting absolutely no combat. Oh on second thought, nm, just not worth it... risking implants etc.


stupid nerf *grumbles*
CCP (can't code properly) drop this excuse for bad coding skills unable to get the defender to work, fix the defender and dismiss the nerf.

—Ω—
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1863 - 2012-09-20 07:38:29 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Hurricane: 720mm 2 TEs, 2 Gyros

RF PP = 426 dps (19 + 36km total: 55km) instant alpha: 3744
Tremor 247dps (70+36km total: 106km) instant alpha: 2170


Harbinger: HB Laser II, 2 TE, 2 Heats Sinks
IN MF = 468dps (19+16km total: 35km) instant alpha: 1664
Aurora = 271dps (70+16km) instant alpha: 953


Brutix: 250mm Rails, 2 MFS, 2 TEs
CN Antimatter = 444 dps (23km + 25km, total: 48km) instant alpha: 1657
Spike = 257dps (84+25km total: 109km) instant alpha: 961


Drake: HMs, 2 BCU
CN Scourge = 368 dps, 84km missile travel distance, Delayed Volley: 2474



Well done.

Gun boats - 2x damage mods + 2xtracking mods == 4 mods
Drake - 2x damage mod == 2 mods

4 mods >> 2 mods

He was comparing typical fits. It's common for the above ships to use two tracking mods. The reason it's not on the Drake is because, well, said tracking mods would be the rigs which are instead used for tank.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1864 - 2012-09-20 07:42:43 UTC
Katharina B wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Katharina B wrote:
If CCP is changing TD to have an effect against missiles; CCP MUST delete defender missiles. If they do not do this the most missions will be unplayable for Caldari Pilots!


How so?
Aren't Sansha the only rats that TD you in missions?
That's about 6% of mission rats.
6% =/= most

Stop exaggerating.

The fact that you do not know what I am doing and how am I doing it says everything. Abandon all mission against highsec and consider to fly in a space with mainly sanshas than come on with your 6%. Roll


You said : "most missions will be unplayable for Caldari Pilots".
Are you speaking for all Caldari pilots?
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1865 - 2012-09-20 07:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomcio FromFarAway
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

He was comparing typical fits. It's common for the above ships to use two tracking mods. The reason it's not on the Drake is because, well, said tracking mods would be the rigs which are instead used for tank.


What rigs would you have used in this comparison?

EDIT

You need to look at the bigger picture here.
Drake is superior in shield tanking when compared to other three and you need to shield tank them in order to make this comparison sensible ( and all are armour tankers, try comparing them in that setups Lol ).
Much bigger base buffer ( especially when compared to Brutix and Harby ), better regen, much better resistances and more slots.
It doesn't have to sacrifice it's tank for its gank like other ships do.
It doesn't have to sacrifice anything.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1866 - 2012-09-20 07:52:54 UTC
BrokenBC wrote:
@ Hans Jagerblitzen, at least we know which csm not to vote for next election!!! this Nerf is way over the top.


Or any of them tbh

This is looking like the most inept and ineffectual CSM for years.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#1867 - 2012-09-20 07:59:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:


Quoted this one because I'm tired of looking for the original.

lasers, hybrids, and projectiles all share support skills where as missiles require a completely different set of skills, they should be better to a certain extent.

Call me when you have to train 18 differnt turrets to T2 and you can't bypass the small Crap you don't need, and you need.

Even with support skills filled out, its 45 days to train a large T2 turret.

Takes two weeks for any missile system.....and you have one more support skill.



I understand your point but it's probably a different topic, but since you brought it up...

You mentioned 45 days training just the weapon itself to get large T2 turrets. The end result of that 45 days of training would be:

Small T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Medium T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Large T2 Turrets of TWO types

At the end of that 45 days you will then have T2 mastery of every primary weapon system -- both short and long range -- used by every turret ship (of any one race) from Frigates all the way through to Battleships. This obviously ignores the turret support skills. Let's assume you train those as well prior to this -- meaning, of course, that you can launch into any other direct fire weapon you like without needing to retrain support skills. This is obviously an advantage. Let's move on.

If you are flying Caldari and want both short and long range T2 weapons for every missile ship from Frigate to BS you will need to train:

Rockets 5
Light Missiles 5
Heavy Missiles 5
(Heavy Assault Missiles 5)
Cruise Missiles 5
(Torpedoes 5)

Plus an additional support skill gun weapons do not have. The direct fire weapon user gets both the short and long range variants of his weapons at two for the price of one, where Caldari pilots must train each individually. Viewed in this way you can clearly see that not only does that Caldari player invest more time, he invests a LOT more training time into his weapons. And the end result is that if he wants to cross train into a new weapon, a direct fire weapon, he has to start over from zero, training his weapons support skills.

The difference is so drastic that a Minmatar player can train every direct fire weapon, from frigate to battleship, in both the AC and Arty versions all to level 5, THEN train every Hybrid weapon from frigate to battleship, every blaster and railgun, again all to level 5, and finish up before the Caldari player is done training his missiles alone. At which point that Caldari pilot has to start over training gun support skills if he wants to fly half his ships.

In other words: if someone deserves a "power bonus" based on training time invested and character committment, it's the poor bloke firing missiles. And I say this as someone who doesn't use missiles. I fly mostly Minmatar and Gallente ships.

However, in one respect you have a point. A newer player can go directly to heavy missiles, and he can be flying a typical blob issued T1 HM drake within a couple weeks. And for mega blob warfare it makes no difference whether the ship is armed with T1 weapons or not as they are relying on alpha.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#1868 - 2012-09-20 08:02:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Hurricane: 720mm 2 TEs, 2 Gyros

RF PP = 426 dps (19 + 36km total: 55km) instant alpha: 3744
Tremor 247dps (70+36km total: 106km) instant alpha: 2170


Harbinger: HB Laser II, 2 TE, 2 Heats Sinks
IN MF = 468dps (19+16km total: 35km) instant alpha: 1664
Aurora = 271dps (70+16km) instant alpha: 953


Brutix: 250mm Rails, 2 MFS, 2 TEs
CN Antimatter = 444 dps (23km + 25km, total: 48km) instant alpha: 1657
Spike = 257dps (84+25km total: 109km) instant alpha: 961


Drake: HMs, 2 BCU
CN Scourge = 368 dps, 84km missile travel distance, Delayed Volley: 2474



Well done.

Gun boats - 2x damage mods + 2xtracking mods == 4 mods
Drake - 2x damage mod == 2 mods

4 mods >> 2 mods

He was comparing typical fits. It's common for the above ships to use two tracking mods. The reason it's not on the Drake is because, well, said tracking mods would be the rigs which are instead used for tank.


Right. The typical HM nano Drake fit you normally encounter would run two BCUs and either two nanos or a DC and a Nano. It would not have any missile rigs.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1869 - 2012-09-20 08:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
OT Smithers wrote:
Onictus wrote:


Quoted this one because I'm tired of looking for the original.

lasers, hybrids, and projectiles all share support skills where as missiles require a completely different set of skills, they should be better to a certain extent.

Call me when you have to train 18 differnt turrets to T2 and you can't bypass the small Crap you don't need, and you need.

Even with support skills filled out, its 45 days to train a large T2 turret.

Takes two weeks for any missile system.....and you have one more support skill.



I understand your point but it's probably a different topic, but since you brought it up...

You mentioned 45 days training just the weapon itself to get large T2 turrets. The end result of that 45 days of training would be:

Small T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Medium T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Large T2 Turrets of TWO types

At the end of that 45 days you will then have T2 mastery of every primary weapon system -- both short and long range -- used by every turret ship (of any one race) from Frigates all the way through to Battleships. This obviously ignores the turret support skills. Let's assume you train those as well prior to this -- meaning, of course, that you can launch into any other direct fire weapon you like without needing to retrain support skills. This is obviously an advantage. Let's move on.

If you are flying Caldari and want both short and long range T2 weapons for every missile ship from Frigate to BS you will need to train:

Rockets 5
Light Missiles 5
Heavy Missiles 5
(Heavy Assault Missiles 5)
Cruise Missiles 5
(Torpedoes 5)

Plus an additional support skill gun weapons do not have. The direct fire weapon user gets both the short and long range variants of his weapons at two for the price of one, where Caldari pilots must train each individually. Viewed in this way you can clearly see that not only does that Caldari player invest more time, he invests a LOT more training time into his weapons. And the end result is that if he wants to cross train into a new weapon, a direct fire weapon, he has to start over from zero, training his weapons support skills.

The difference is so drastic that a Minmatar player can train every direct fire weapon, from frigate to battleship, in both the AC and Arty versions all to level 5, THEN train every Hybrid weapon from frigate to battleship, every blaster and railgun, again all to level 5, and finish up before the Caldari player is done training his missiles alone. At which point that Caldari pilot has to start over training gun support skills if he wants to fly half his ships.

In other words: if someone deserves a "power bonus" based on training time invested and character committment, it's the poor bloke firing missiles. And I say this as someone who doesn't use missiles. I fly mostly Minmatar and Gallente ships.

However, in one respect you have a point. A newer player can go directly to heavy missiles, and he can be flying a typical blob issued T1 HM drake within a couple weeks. And for mega blob warfare it makes no difference whether the ship is armed with T1 weapons or not as they are relying on alpha.



You act as if caldari are the only race that uses missiles, guess again.

Fly recons ....any recon, better train missiles, like bombers? Torps. Sacrilage and Legion, HAMs
Rifter
Cyclone
Tristan
Typhoon
Tempest
Megathron

......all have missile slots

Everyone trains it, much like drones.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#1870 - 2012-09-20 08:13:14 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:


Well done.

Gun boats - 2x damage mods + 2xtracking mods == 4 mods
Drake - 2x damage mod == 2 mods

4 mods >> 2 mods



Drakes only have 4 low slots. The typical HM nano Drake fits 2 BCUs (the only damage mod they have) and either a couple nanos or a DC and a nano. This is what you are facing in the field, so we might as well talk about the real EFT numbers rather than the deceptive stuff people have posted earlier in this thread. The same applies to the other ships. Since you are never going to encounter a ranged fit Cane (or whatever) without those mods there is no sense discussing them. If anything, I didn't put on all of the weapon enhancing mods that these other ships might run. That Cane, for example, might very well have 3 gyros and 2 TE's along with a DC.

Unlike some, I listed exactly what was used to generate those numbers and I tried to make them representative of what you might encounter. Some people might fit them differently, but it gives us something of a baseline.

OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#1871 - 2012-09-20 08:20:12 UTC
Onictus wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Onictus wrote:


Quoted this one because I'm tired of looking for the original.

lasers, hybrids, and projectiles all share support skills where as missiles require a completely different set of skills, they should be better to a certain extent.

Call me when you have to train 18 differnt turrets to T2 and you can't bypass the small Crap you don't need, and you need.

Even with support skills filled out, its 45 days to train a large T2 turret.

Takes two weeks for any missile system.....and you have one more support skill.



I understand your point but it's probably a different topic, but since you brought it up...

You mentioned 45 days training just the weapon itself to get large T2 turrets. The end result of that 45 days of training would be:

Small T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Medium T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Large T2 Turrets of TWO types

At the end of that 45 days you will then have T2 mastery of every primary weapon system -- both short and long range -- used by every turret ship (of any one race) from Frigates all the way through to Battleships. This obviously ignores the turret support skills. Let's assume you train those as well prior to this -- meaning, of course, that you can launch into any other direct fire weapon you like without needing to retrain support skills. This is obviously an advantage. Let's move on.

If you are flying Caldari and want both short and long range T2 weapons for every missile ship from Frigate to BS you will need to train:

Rockets 5
Light Missiles 5
Heavy Missiles 5
(Heavy Assault Missiles 5)
Cruise Missiles 5
(Torpedoes 5)

Plus an additional support skill gun weapons do not have. The direct fire weapon user gets both the short and long range variants of his weapons at two for the price of one, where Caldari pilots must train each individually. Viewed in this way you can clearly see that not only does that Caldari player invest more time, he invests a LOT more training time into his weapons. And the end result is that if he wants to cross train into a new weapon, a direct fire weapon, he has to start over from zero, training his weapons support skills.

The difference is so drastic that a Minmatar player can train every direct fire weapon, from frigate to battleship, in both the AC and Arty versions all to level 5, THEN train every Hybrid weapon from frigate to battleship, every blaster and railgun, again all to level 5, and finish up before the Caldari player is done training his missiles alone. At which point that Caldari pilot has to start over training gun support skills if he wants to fly half his ships.

In other words: if someone deserves a "power bonus" based on training time invested and character committment, it's the poor bloke firing missiles. And I say this as someone who doesn't use missiles. I fly mostly Minmatar and Gallente ships.

However, in one respect you have a point. A newer player can go directly to heavy missiles, and he can be flying a typical blob issued T1 HM drake within a couple weeks. And for mega blob warfare it makes no difference whether the ship is armed with T1 weapons or not as they are relying on alpha.



You act as if caldari are the only race that uses missiles, guess again.

Fly recons ....any recon, better train missiles, like bombers? Torps. Sacrilage and Legion, HAMs
Rifter
Cyclone
Tristan
Typhoon
Tempest
Megathron

......all have missile slots

Everyone trains it, much like drones.


Yes. But no other race has missiles as their primary weapon. You can fly Minmatar forever, never fit missiles to anything, and likely never particularly notice the lack. You don't need a rocket on your Rifter and you are probably better off with something else there anyway. The Cyclone gets by just fine without missiles, and if that bothers you fly the Cane. The same applies to the Typhoon -- you can use Torps or your can use large guns, and I suspect most folks fill their secondary weapon / accessory high slots with heavy neuts anyway.

About half the ships in the Caldari combat lineup use missiles exclusively, and most of them were considered sub-par even prior to this nerf. Post nerf some of them are going to be laughably bad.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1872 - 2012-09-20 08:29:19 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
[Post nerf some of them are going to be laughably bad.


Remarkably, missile systems other than HMs exist. They'll be fine, you just lack imagination and self-confidence.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1873 - 2012-09-20 08:34:33 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Hurricane: 720mm 2 TEs, 2 Gyros

RF PP = 426 dps (19 + 36km total: 55km) instant alpha: 3744
Tremor 247dps (70+36km total: 106km) instant alpha: 2170


Harbinger: HB Laser II, 2 TE, 2 Heats Sinks
IN MF = 468dps (19+16km total: 35km) instant alpha: 1664
Aurora = 271dps (70+16km) instant alpha: 953


Brutix: 250mm Rails, 2 MFS, 2 TEs
CN Antimatter = 444 dps (23km + 25km, total: 48km) instant alpha: 1657
Spike = 257dps (84+25km total: 109km) instant alpha: 961


Drake: HMs, 2 BCU
CN Scourge = 368 dps, 84km missile travel distance, Delayed Volley: 2474



Well done.

Gun boats - 2x damage mods + 2xtracking mods == 4 mods
Drake - 2x damage mod == 2 mods

4 mods >> 2 mods

He was comparing typical fits. It's common for the above ships to use two tracking mods. The reason it's not on the Drake is because, well, said tracking mods would be the rigs which are instead used for tank.


Right. The typical HM nano Drake fit you normally encounter would run two BCUs and either two nanos or a DC and a Nano. It would not have any missile rigs.


It would also have 90k+ ehp compared to the 40-45k EHP the other 3 have.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
MisterArch
Red October.
Fanatic Legion.
#1874 - 2012-09-20 08:34:36 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Hurricane: 720mm 2 TEs, 2 Gyros

RF PP = 426 dps (19 + 36km total: 55km) instant alpha: 3744
Tremor 247dps (70+36km total: 106km) instant alpha: 2170


Harbinger: HB Laser II, 2 TE, 2 Heats Sinks
IN MF = 468dps (19+16km total: 35km) instant alpha: 1664
Aurora = 271dps (70+16km) instant alpha: 953


Brutix: 250mm Rails, 2 MFS, 2 TEs
CN Antimatter = 444 dps (23km + 25km, total: 48km) instant alpha: 1657
Spike = 257dps (84+25km total: 109km) instant alpha: 961


Drake: HMs, 2 BCU
CN Scourge = 368 dps, 84km missile travel distance, Delayed Volley: 2474

NOTES:
1. The Drake damage is delayed while the others hit instantly
2. While the total maximum missile travel distance is theorestically 84km, this is NOT the range at which the missile will strike as it does not take into account either acceleration or the motions of the two ships relative to one another.
3. All damage numbers are ideal. HM damage is reduced by target size and velocity. Missiles are also incapable of "critical hits"

This!
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#1875 - 2012-09-20 08:35:49 UTC
I think the new changes to missiles are okay. I have flown a drake for over 3 months withs heavy missiles and they really were tooooo good.
BUT. What the devs maybe forgot: Hunting down a frig with large or medium turrets at long range isn´t that big problem. Heavy missiles dont´t have that advantage. They always suck when chasing down frigs and that is especially with the drake because it lacks a missile velocity bonus. Frigs with HM and caracal maybe doable but Drake had always probs with frigs and will get even more problems. 20%less damage maybe too much. To be realistic 15% would be okay.
But heavy assault missiles REALLY need some love. With these changes Drake will be really frig fodder.
What CCP may consider is maybe really nerf the damage down 15% and give heavy AND heavy assault mssiles something that has really a chance to kill a frigate. Drams and Daredevils actually really scare a Drake Pilot to hell.
Also the range nerf: toooo much. Artillery is even better.
Please buff HAMS a bit. Would like to see them more in eve.
Nerfing Cane is also great. TBH it was even more overpowered than drake.
So good job CCP. I really admit it. But 15% less damage and 15% less range plus something that can hit frigates for heavy missiles would be okay. HAMs would also need some 10% or 15% more range pus something that can hit a frig.
The pwg and cpu requirements for HAMs are actually toooo high for that performance.
Katharina B
Covenant Trading Agency
#1876 - 2012-09-20 08:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Katharina B
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
I think the new changes to missiles are okay. I have flown a drake for over 3 months withs heavy missiles and they really were tooooo good.
BUT. What the devs maybe forgot: Hunting down a frig with large or medium turrets at long range isn´t that big problem. Heavy missiles dont´t have that advantage. They always suck when chasing down frigs and that is especially with the drake because it lacks a missile velocity bonus. Frigs with HM and caracal maybe doable but Drake had always probs with frigs and will get even more problems. 20%less damage maybe too much. To be realistic 15% would be okay.
But heavy assault missiles REALLY need some love. With these changes Drake will be really frig fodder.
What CCP may consider is maybe really nerf the damage down 15% and give heavy AND heavy assault mssiles something that has really a chance to kill a frigate. Drams and Daredevils actually really scare a Drake Pilot to hell.
Also the range nerf: toooo much. Artillery is even better.
Please buff HAMS a bit. Would like to see them more in eve.
Nerfing Cane is also great. TBH it was even more overpowered than drake.
So good job CCP. I really admit it. But 15% less damage and 15% less range plus something that can hit frigates for heavy missiles would be okay. HAMs would also need some 10% or 15% more range pus something that can hit a frig.
The pwg and cpu requirements for HAMs are actually toooo high for that performance.


Even 15% are too much. CCP abandon the daft idea that TD affecting missiles! Fix defenders or let it be! You nerf a whole weapon system and race because you are unable to bring DEFENDERS and TWO SINGLE ships in line! Good job CCP! You have an already existing option to destroy incoming missiles. Your problem if it causes lag or you are unable to do the right codings!
Signal11th
#1877 - 2012-09-20 08:53:48 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
I think the new changes to missiles are okay. I have flown a drake for over 3 months withs heavy missiles and they really were tooooo good.
BUT. What the devs maybe forgot: Hunting down a frig with large or medium turrets at long range isn´t that big problem. Heavy missiles dont´t have that advantage. They always suck when chasing down frigs and that is especially with the drake because it lacks a missile velocity bonus. Frigs with HM and caracal maybe doable but Drake had always probs with frigs and will get even more problems. 20%less damage maybe too much. To be realistic 15% would be okay.
But heavy assault missiles REALLY need some love. With these changes Drake will be really frig fodder.
What CCP may consider is maybe really nerf the damage down 15% and give heavy AND heavy assault mssiles something that has really a chance to kill a frigate. Drams and Daredevils actually really scare a Drake Pilot to hell.
Also the range nerf: toooo much. Artillery is even better.
Please buff HAMS a bit. Would like to see them more in eve.
Nerfing Cane is also great. TBH it was even more overpowered than drake.
So good job CCP. I really admit it. But 15% less damage and 15% less range plus something that can hit frigates for heavy missiles would be okay. HAMs would also need some 10% or 15% more range pus something that can hit a frig.
The pwg and cpu requirements for HAMs are actually toooo high for that performance.




What you are missing though is the notion that the Drake is too good not the missles. Unless I'm in a blob missles are the last thing I would take into PVP.

Nerf the ships not the modules.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1878 - 2012-09-20 08:55:07 UTC
OK, I'm going to throw out some numbers.

This is going to be all skills lvl 5 and I'll use the 4 tier 2 bc's with their respective weapon systems, with boh t2 ammo types, and drones for the Myrmidon since that is it's specialty.

Now, one thing that will be different is I will use my proposed change to missiles.

That is,

PRECISION WILL BE LONG RANGE AND FURY WILL BE SHORT RANGE.

This is on par with how every other weapon system is balanced. Greater range means less dps.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not adding faction or t1 ammo because these will need to be balanced similar to unguided missiles, and I don't feel like doing that myself.

However, if you would like to do that, than just use unguided missiles as an example (i.e. the precentage difference between t1 and faction compared to t2 will be roughly equal)

Ok, here it goes (no other modules)

{ammo - dps @ range}

Drake
Hams II
Rage - 349 @ 18.1
Javelin - 197 @ 30.4

Hml II - (with my proposed swap in ranges)
Fury - 224 @ 42.2
Precision - 189 @ 75.9

Hurricane
425mm AC II
Hail - 417 @ 1.5+9 = 10.5
Barrage - 298 @ 3+18 = 21

720mm HA II
Quake - 294 @ 7.5 + 22 = 29.5
Tremor - 168 @ 54 + 22 = 77

Harbinger
Heavy Pulse II
Conflagration - 406 @ 7.5 + 5 = 12.5
Scorch - 290 @ 23 + 5 = 28

Heavy Beam II
Gleam - 323 @ 7.5 + 10 = 17.5
Aurora - 184 @ 54 + 10 = 64

Myrmidon
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Void - 341 @ 3.4 + 3.1 = 6.5
Null - 244 @ 6.3 + 8.8 = 15.1

250mm Railgun II
Javelin - 210 @ 9 + 15 = 24
Spike - 120 @ 65 + 15 = 80

With 5 x t2 medium drones each set gets plus 238 dps @ up to 60km with all skills lvl 5.

close range high damage
The drake has the greatest range by 5.6km to 11.6km
Has lowest dps by 230 to 57

high damage with range
Drake has greatet range by 2.4km to 15.3km
Lowest dps by 285 dps to 93 dps

(REMEMBER, THESE NEXT TWO ARE WITH MY PROPOSED SWAP TO GUIDED MISSILES)
Long range high damage
Drake has greatest range by 12.7km to 24.7km
But lowest dps by 224dps to 70 dps

Max range
Drake has 3rd greatest range being 4.1km from the top, and 11.9km from the bottom
Drake has greatest dps by 69 to 5 dps (behind by 169 @ up to 60km from myrm drones & turrets)


Now, the myrmidon shines in dps up to 60 km and has the greatest possible range @ 80km, but lowest dps at max range

The drake has the highest range until max range, but the highest dps at max range, but by substationally less dps than it is overpowered by in other ranges.

Now, when you consider my suggested change of swapping fury and precision ranges for all guided missiles, these weapon systems actually seem fairly balanced apart from hybrids on a myrm, but it makes up for it with drones.


I think this would negate the need for a range AND dps nerf to heavy missiles.

Instead, then needed nerfs could be aimed directly at the tengu and drake themselves.

Perhaps drop the drake shield recharge rate so that it can't fit a passive tank as effectively as it does.

With the tengu, drop its range bonuses, and reduce cpu and pg so that it can't fit 100mn afterburners and so that it has tochoose between dps or tank.

BOOM!!! besides balancing faction and t1 guided missiles, the drake and tengu are balanced and guided missiles become balanced in the same manner as every other weapon system.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1879 - 2012-09-20 08:55:24 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Onictus wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Onictus wrote:


Quoted this one because I'm tired of looking for the original.

lasers, hybrids, and projectiles all share support skills where as missiles require a completely different set of skills, they should be better to a certain extent.

Call me when you have to train 18 differnt turrets to T2 and you can't bypass the small Crap you don't need, and you need.

Even with support skills filled out, its 45 days to train a large T2 turret.

Takes two weeks for any missile system.....and you have one more support skill.



I understand your point but it's probably a different topic, but since you brought it up...

You mentioned 45 days training just the weapon itself to get large T2 turrets. The end result of that 45 days of training would be:

Small T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Medium T2 Turrets of TWO types plus specializations (4 if I recall)
Large T2 Turrets of TWO types

At the end of that 45 days you will then have T2 mastery of every primary weapon system -- both short and long range -- used by every turret ship (of any one race) from Frigates all the way through to Battleships. This obviously ignores the turret support skills. Let's assume you train those as well prior to this -- meaning, of course, that you can launch into any other direct fire weapon you like without needing to retrain support skills. This is obviously an advantage. Let's move on.

If you are flying Caldari and want both short and long range T2 weapons for every missile ship from Frigate to BS you will need to train:

Rockets 5
Light Missiles 5
Heavy Missiles 5
(Heavy Assault Missiles 5)
Cruise Missiles 5
(Torpedoes 5)

Plus an additional support skill gun weapons do not have. The direct fire weapon user gets both the short and long range variants of his weapons at two for the price of one, where Caldari pilots must train each individually. Viewed in this way you can clearly see that not only does that Caldari player invest more time, he invests a LOT more training time into his weapons. And the end result is that if he wants to cross train into a new weapon, a direct fire weapon, he has to start over from zero, training his weapons support skills.

The difference is so drastic that a Minmatar player can train every direct fire weapon, from frigate to battleship, in both the AC and Arty versions all to level 5, THEN train every Hybrid weapon from frigate to battleship, every blaster and railgun, again all to level 5, and finish up before the Caldari player is done training his missiles alone. At which point that Caldari pilot has to start over training gun support skills if he wants to fly half his ships.

In other words: if someone deserves a "power bonus" based on training time invested and character committment, it's the poor bloke firing missiles. And I say this as someone who doesn't use missiles. I fly mostly Minmatar and Gallente ships.

However, in one respect you have a point. A newer player can go directly to heavy missiles, and he can be flying a typical blob issued T1 HM drake within a couple weeks. And for mega blob warfare it makes no difference whether the ship is armed with T1 weapons or not as they are relying on alpha.



You act as if caldari are the only race that uses missiles, guess again.

Fly recons ....any recon, better train missiles, like bombers? Torps. Sacrilage and Legion, HAMs
Rifter
Cyclone
Tristan
Typhoon
Tempest
Megathron

......all have missile slots

Everyone trains it, much like drones.


Yes. But no other race has missiles as their primary weapon. You can fly Minmatar forever, never fit missiles to anything, and likely never particularly notice the lack. You don't need a rocket on your Rifter and you are probably better off with something else there anyway. The Cyclone gets by just fine without missiles, and if that bothers you fly the Cane. The same applies to the Typhoon -- you can use Torps or your can use large guns, and I suspect most folks fill their secondary weapon / accessory high slots with heavy neuts anyway.

About half the ships in the Caldari combat lineup use missiles exclusively, and most of them were considered sub-par even prior to this nerf. Post nerf some of them are going to be laughably bad.



Do you missed the missile bonus on the Lachesis, Typhoon, and Sac? .....I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

.....and if by exclusively you are ignoring merlin, harpy, ferox, eagle, naga, and rokh. This is off the top of my head mind you, I cant remember the name of the T1 cruiser.
Iyica de Tylmarand
Doomheim
#1880 - 2012-09-20 09:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyica de Tylmarand
This is waaaaaaaay excessive IMO. Range nerf and damage nerf and TD buff to counter missiles? Really?

I think it's far better to go with a smaller nerf to see how things go rather than go with a giant NERFHAMMERSMACKOFDOOM and see Caracals/Nighthawks/Tengus/Drake dissappear from space altogether. I don't remember anyone really complaining about Heavy Missile damage, only their damage projection. I agree with the range nerf. I think that part is great. The damage nerf on the other hand I'm horrifiied by. 5% Nerf sure. 10% okay. 20% nerf is just trolling. Damage on missiles is balanced compared with other guns,

I understand the community has a strong dislike of Tengus and Drakes but this is an unnecessary smack to other missile boats. As I understand it the Nighthawk in it's current state is already rather underwhelming. Damnation is mostly used for links in serious PvP but there are some who still fit it with some damage support, this will kill those fits and therefore limit the variety of fits for that hull.