Ships & Modules

I do like how CCP is making the only viable medium long range weapon system to be just as useless as the rest.

Medium LR turrets are largely pointless. Their range is not good enough and they are only suited for chipping paint.


There is a reason why you never see the Eagle ever being used.

I barely used Medium Long range turrets, the specialization skills exists only to be stepping stones for the larger and superior Large Specialization.

Long range turrets are flawed:

VS short range Guns:

Pros:
+Long Range

Con:
-Higher Capacitor use
-Worse Tracking
-Higher Fitting Costs
-Worse DPS
-Worse Tech 2 ammo

Many things are given up at the cost of longer range.

Lets compare a Beam Harbinger vs a Beam Oracle with a sniper setup of TE,TC, and Sebo

With IN MF:

Harb: 526 dps at 21 km optimal

Oracle: 866 dps at 47 km optimal

Now lets compare using T2 Long Range Ammo:

Harb: 305 dps at 75 km optimal

Oracle: 502 dps at 168 km optimal

Both of these ships have no tank, so the best idea is to sit far away and snipe. The harbinger has a very high chance of being able to hit. The Oracle has a much better chance at avoiding retaliation. Not to mention it does double the dps of the harbinger using the same ammo. At the range you are shooting, tracking is nonexistant.

QQ, my Tengu, my Tengu!!!!



The beam Harbinger gets something on the order of 400% of the tracking of the beam Oracle. Speaking from experience, tracking absolutely matters at 168km and if you're shooting at something that's moving at all you probably want to load up faction Radio.

-Liang

Ed: This is actually a topic I'm interested in discussing. If you want to keep the topic on Med vs Lg turrets I'd love to discuss it even more. If you want to continually QQ about HML getting nerfed then I'll continue to point out that it's well deserved and missiles as a whole are being massively boosted.

Try actually doing that in space sometime. It doesn't work the way you think it does. (This is experience - from both perspectives - speaking)

-Liang

I have.

I have yet to blap a frigate with an LR-L gun, but i have blapped Dessie sigs (notably: Interdictors, their approach 2.5k, my pull 2k, their sig 600 ish). That is completely unsupported (no bonuses, no painters, no webs, no other ships). I have blapped frigate sigs with SR-L guns, but that was supported and in a gang (where the frigates, or Interceptors, met crossfire in a Recon-web killzone).

I have also been in a frigate dogfight with a DP-setup where they warped in a Tier 3 BC sniper at 100 ish. Me and the other frigate entangled in AB-orbits with webs and the BC ending up doing the most damage as they broke my back. He definately did miss shots, but when he connected, it connected indeed.

ps. Marcus, it's not EFT math, it's "recollection" math gained through ingame experience (which is why i rarely use exact figures in my examples). These days i mostly just use EFT to reference check after the fact. If details get important.

If you read my post again, you will see that it says "a frigate will be largely safe unless he MWD". That doesn't mean he dies the instant he turns an MWD on. What he does though (unless he can impose transversal) is turn those two modifiers down toward 0 and the LR-L will begin to see connections more steadily (as if he was a Cruiser without MWD).

I'm not sure if it was the word "blap" that threw it off a bit. Keep in mind, i just use it as a general reference to oversized guns connecting down. I understand people can interprete it as "alpha" though (ie., volley kills). That's not so. Keep in mind that mitigating transversal have another perk: it drag out the time of the approach (if transversal is only 500, he only crush distance by 500m/s as well - leaving you time to shoot). It definately doesn't take forever though.

And no, when i say "on approach" i don't mean someone hitting the approach button, come on .

Make no mistake: The ability to control range, cut transversal and apply oversized guns is a very powerful feature (wether it's old Vagas or new Talos supported by Recons). I would know, most of my time in this game have been spent running such tactics.

Marcus, how do you impose radial or angular on a ship that is faster than you?

It's the second time in the past few days i've had to ask that question (it makes me wonder if we have all these HML-players looking into Turrets now, maybe watching the excellent tracking basics movie Agony put out - and then swing words like "radial", "angular", or "indirect approach" around without understanding what they actually are).

You need to keep in mind that an "indirect approach" assumes you being considerably faster than your opponent (which in the Agony basics sits still to show you just that), so you can transform your high transversal into a pincer to impose angular. It's quite funny when people without any higher order ingame experience so readily pull the EFT-card.

That's why i talk transversal first (and as a result of that, generally only ever really talk transversal on these forums).

An Interceptor will of course impose transversal on an unsupported BC, it goes without saying: one go 5km/s the other 2km/s. However, apply one LR web on that and that 5kms is all of a sudden also 2km/s.

Its easy to consider that when you have some guys close range trying to kill you as well.