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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#1761 - 2012-09-19 23:09:24 UTC
20% dmg nerf is a bit over kill imo.
and the range nerf is hurting the smaller gangs big time. What?
should lower to 10-15% nerf instead.
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#1762 - 2012-09-19 23:11:07 UTC
If there is to be a separate module type to disrupt missiles, it should be called a "missile dazzler". Dazzler is used nowadays for some anti-missile devices.

Tracking disruptor to counter guns, Missile dazzler to counter missiles. Yaay.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1763 - 2012-09-19 23:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
CCP Fozzie wrote:
stuff



Oh, forgot 2 questions


Do y'all have any plans to fix missiles not hitting after your ship has been destroyed?


The next is,

Missiles are extremely annoying because you can have several volleys in the air at once, causing wasted ammo.
If you try to measure how many volleys it takes to down specific ships,and somehow that calculation becomes wrong, then you waist volleys trying to take down the recharged shield/armor that wouldn't have been there had you fired one extra volley.

Do y'all plan on addressing this?
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1764 - 2012-09-19 23:16:17 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
talking about using afterburners

Not using microwarpdrives is not such a simple thing. You need a hell of a tank and small sig to pull if off. Otherwise you will just die in bubbles or if in lowsec die to tackling frigs getting under your guns or Lachesis and Huginn tackle.

ABs work with armor hacs because of the tank and the fleet comp. On BCs it doesn't work. On BSs it's even worse to fit an ab because the speed boost is essentially meaningless.

Also, I think if the whole anti-drake blob solution was to fit ABs it would have become widespread seen by now, 3 years into Drake blobs.


but that's the thing, it doesn't require a hell of a tank and small sig to pull it off. I'm talking 1 vs 1, after these proposed changes, the drake will be rendered useless in PVP, and it's PVE applications will be greatly reduced as well. Against a harbinger and, yes, even the Brutix, the calculations are roughly the same. The problem isn't the mechanics of the HM's or even the Drakes dps. It's a problem with the tanking setups.

It's easier to fit a good shield tank than it is a good armor tank because of the difference in needing low slots *where your damage mods go* for armor tanking versus your mids *where shield tanking goes* as well as the fact that guns need tracking computers. Also, the fact that Shields have a passive recharge versus active recharge....armor tanking as active of buffer. THAT's the real problem.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1765 - 2012-09-19 23:18:59 UTC
It's not a problem - It's Eve...
The only thing wrong with armor tanking is the penalty on velocity that was introduced with armor rigs
Darklord Ky
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1766 - 2012-09-19 23:21:12 UTC
I feel these changes are poorly thought out. do you plain on adding a delay for all weapon damage applied to bring them in line with missiles. dropping resistance bonuses on all ships. maybe you can give every ship weapon and race the same stats and slots, damage.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1767 - 2012-09-19 23:24:16 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:
but that's the thing, it doesn't require a hell of a tank and small sig to pull it off. I'm talking 1 vs 1, after these proposed changes, the drake will be rendered useless in PVP, and it's PVE applications will be greatly reduced as well.


Old school HAM Drake reliably beat all other BCs. Yawn.
Spr09
Gold Trimmed Stars
#1768 - 2012-09-19 23:24:18 UTC
tgl3 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time
Explosion radius and explosion velocity
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range script lowers flight time

My pilgrim approves of this.


Oh god.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1769 - 2012-09-19 23:26:19 UTC
Darklord Ky wrote:
I feel these changes are poorly thought out. do you plain on adding a delay for all weapon damage applied to bring them in line with missiles. dropping resistance bonuses on all ships. maybe you can give every ship weapon and race the same stats and slots, damage.


My balancing suggestion represented here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155540&find=unread

is actually a rather simple balance to missiles.

The drake and hurricane would be on par with each other and the individual ranges.

However, the drake would have the advantage of picking damage types.

Where as the hurricane would have the option of adding more dps with launchers in the two extra highs, or would be abe to fit more utility/ewar.

honestly, with simple swapping of the range of fury and precision missiles, they become much more balanced.
Lucius Exitius
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1770 - 2012-09-19 23:30:39 UTC
Nerfing HML? Why they are already ineffective in pvp. Way to make something that is useless outside of PVE even more useless. Tengus are now obsolete and all the work ive been doing for my command ship is now pointless...
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1771 - 2012-09-19 23:31:05 UTC
Missiles have always needed to be looked at and now I feel that they have gotten the love that they deserve.

The TE/TC/TD Bloc has been needed in missile combat for a long time and many nay sayer's don't realize how much this will effect missile combat in general.

The hurricane has also needed to be backhanded like a redheaded stepchild for a very long time and I for one am glad that they are making it apart of the first iteration rather than waiting.

Powerbloc's and alliances will now have to think farther than where's the nearest drake to jump into a fleet with. I for one am very interested to see what the new fleets will be based on. It's good to know that CCP is interested in shaking things up, the stagnation right now is frustrating. I hardly log on anymore because all I see in low/nullsec are the same ships over and over, (not so much anymore, but still annoying that there are so many canes/drakes). I long ago memorized all the popular fittings and gotten used to the more common tactics, this alone has made me apathetic to playing more regularly. This rebalance is a good thing and I know that I will be playing more often when Winter has come.

CCP Fozzie o7!!!

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1772 - 2012-09-19 23:37:02 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
Missiles have always needed to be looked at and now I feel that they have gotten the love that they deserve.

The TE/TC/TD Bloc has been needed in missile combat for a long time and many nay sayer's don't realize how much this will effect missile combat in general.

The hurricane has also needed to be backhanded like a redheaded stepchild for a very long time and I for one am glad that they are making it apart of the first iteration rather than waiting.

Powerbloc's and alliances will now have to think farther than where's the nearest drake to jump into a fleet with. I for one am very interested to see what the new fleets will be based on. It's good to know that CCP is interested in shaking things up, the stagnation right now is frustrating. I hardly log on anymore because all I see in low/nullsec are the same ships over and over, (not so much anymore, but still annoying that there are so many canes/drakes). I long ago memorized all the popular fittings and gotten used to the more common tactics, this alone has made me apathetic to playing more regularly. This rebalance is a good thing and I know that I will be playing more often when Winter has come.

CCP Fozzie o7!!!


Oh yeah, this is totally a buff to missiles Roll
MeowMix1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1773 - 2012-09-19 23:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: MeowMix1
Does any at CCP even consider the effects of these game changes? Just in case no one in your offices thinks ahead, I suggest you try to answer these two questions.

1) Why would anyone use a missile ship after these nerfs?

2) What purpose would the lower PG Hurricane fulfill?


I'll even supply you a "cheat sheet" like you used back in school, providing the proper answers:
1) No one
2) None
Lucius Exitius
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1774 - 2012-09-19 23:42:03 UTC
Do people not realize that missiles rarely do full damage and they take twice as long to shoot? You have too many ways to reduce the dps of missiles. A drake trying to hit a frigate even with the best skills and precision missiles is nearly impossible.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1775 - 2012-09-19 23:45:54 UTC
While missiles definitely needed a nerf, the way this is to be implemented gives something to be desired.

I mean, I have to help cut down blobs of the things on a semi-regular basis, but the thing with drakes was always their massive buffer, no the dps they put out. Oh maybe a 10-15% reduction in range on drake would be appropriate, maybe lose the resist or damage bonus, but this is a bit far.


Also, at this point, just as a rough popularity poll, this is post 1775, and the op has 48 likes.


Less than one in 30 for likes/post, closer to 1 in 40. Obviously unpopular.


Poor tengu is now mehtier for fleet. Now cant easily engage at the 100-120 km window outside the engagement range of most fleets.
The new 80ish is well within most BS's and even a lot of longer range HAC's.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1776 - 2012-09-19 23:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
SERIOUSLY,

Simple balance change to missiles.


The issue is guided missiles.

Unlike any other weapon system, guided missiles allow higher damage weapons to go farther.

Simply change this.

Allow precision to go the distance, and fury to be shorter range.

This mean the drake has precision missiles up to 75km, and fury up to 42km.

I've done a comparison to a Hurricane as they both currently sit, the only difference being that precision heavy missiles would be longer range while fury were shorter.

Here is what I got

Drake(all skill lvl 5)
(No other modules, only launchers)

Hams
Rage - 349dps @ 18km
Javelin - 246dps @ 30km

Hmls
Fury - 224dps @ 42km
Precision 189dps @ 75km

Hurricane (all skills lvl 5)
(No other modules, only turrets)

425mm AC II
Hail - 417 dps @ 1.5+9
Barrage - 298 dps @ 3+18

720mm Howitzer Artillery II
Quake - 294 dps @ 7.5+22
Tremor - 168 dps @ 54+22


When pitting them against each other the differences are

68 more dps @ 7.5 km less comparing hail to rage
52 more dps @ 9 km less comparing Barrage to Javelin
70 more dps @ 12.5km less comparing Quake to my sugested fury
21 less dps @ 2km more when comparing Tremor to my suggested precision

HOWEVER, the Hurricane is also capable of either fitting 2 launchers for increased dps, or having to utility highes.
Also, the differences in range by comparison isn't entirely correct due to missiles having acceleration.
So, there is actually 3-5kms less in difference, and tremor would actually be 3-5km greater in difference.


Now, if you do this for missiles, then you only individual balancing to the ships, and other ships could retain their balance.
Dunmer Orion
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1777 - 2012-09-20 00:08:22 UTC
When I started playing this game everyone told me how the Drake and Tengu were only for "PVE"...now they're being "balanced" because they're too effective!? Train all the things! That's the only way to take advantage for the unexpected buff that is will most likey cause Lol.

-DO
Sigras
Conglomo
#1778 - 2012-09-20 00:22:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.

Well ok, those numbers seem pretty well balanced . . . but the problem is that the guns can switch to close range ammo to do more damage; they need to make shorter range higher damage missiles . . .

oh wait . . .

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tech Two Missiles
-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Improve bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly

The only issue there is the significant time investment needed to use those options and the limit to T2 versions where all medium turrets have that option as soon as they can be used.


This is true, but remember that we're also comparing the T1 missiles against the T2 long range ammo that the other ships only get after a whole ton of training.

The missiles get sniping ammo before T2 and the guns get short range ammo before T2


The only thing I still dont get is, if explosion radius and velocity are analogous to tracking, why do the short range missiles have worse "tracking"? shouldnt it get better at short ranges like all the other weapon systems do

IE
Blaster tracking > Railgun tracking
Pulse tracking > beam tracking
autocannon tracking > arty tracking.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1779 - 2012-09-20 00:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Fozzie, you say that the foundations of Heavy Missiles are broken, so therefore you must hammer on them..

Then you go on to state that only 2 ships are the problem, agreeing with us.

That literally makes no sense.

Drake:

Problems were too much tank, too much resistance, too much range

Tengu

Too much range, too much tank, too easy to fit, too much damage (LOL 7.5% ROF)


Notice how every other fricking ship in game that uses HMLs has no problems at all. Notice how the only damage concern between either of the OP ships was because of a stupid high ROF bonus.

Missiles were balanced, and have been for quite some time. There's already one counter to them in game using smart bombs to reduce damage. Drake with any other damage type has **** all dps, so if you don't like the fact that it does too much kinetic damage, nerf the ship. Most players think it's lol bad to be so heavily tied to one damage type.

If you remove the range from the drake/tengu by dropping missile range, those two ships look a hell of a lot less scary because they come inside higher damage range of enemy ships.

If you further hit the drake resist bonus and base shield, and look at the Power grid on the Tengu in addtion to LSEs, you'd find that 2 ships and a range debuff were all you needed. But hey, Let's **** over an entire weapon system instead, and open a can of worms with some 15 odd ships that use them.

We already know you made up your mind, so go ahead and cause another failed patch that will take 5 years to sort out.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1780 - 2012-09-20 00:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Oops