Player Features and Ideas Discussion

What is it with you guys and nerfing Caldari to be honest take missiles out of the game and make everyone use guns Caldari would be better of , and by the way can I have all the skills back i trained on missiles because they are useless now

The dps stats usually take account of reload time, but of course if they haven't then they should.

To digress - I have been a vocal proponent of a drake and tengu nerf. That the first salvo comes on HMLs is not what I envisioned. I have always been more concerned about the resist bonus and the skewed BC shield regen stats. But yeah I have mentioned the range advantage and dps over range advantage that Drakes and HMLs possessed which everyone identified and led to the overuse of the ship.

That being said, I am concerned with the damage nerf on HMs. I fully agree that having similarly bonused Drakes doing 400 dps at 70km (with faction ammo or fury) and any other tier 2 Turret BC doing only 250 or so (with tech II long ranged ammo) at that range was a mistake (tech one turret ammo has an even worse comparison). The balancing should take into account this disparity and shrink it. However, it is a valid point for missile proponents to point out that they do not have the range ammo swap option to turret short range higher damage ammo, and HAMs as short range option necessitate a refit which is of course impractical.

Comparing medium pulse, ac, and balster theoretical dps against a Drake with HMs has always been a flawed argument with missile proponents, but comparing tech II long range gun short range high damage ammo with Fury is valid. So let's look at the current situation.

Harbinger with Aurora and two HS II with all level 5 skills dps is 271
Drake with Scourge Fury and two BCS II and all 5 skills dps is 396
Each with 7 weapons, hittiing for this at 70km, no drones

Changing that Harby to Gleam and it's dps is 475 but range is only 10km optimal (2 TC II with optimal)

So from a purely dps balancing perspective (disregarding the downsides of each weapon system with tracking or explosion parameters as each get affected by target speed or sig) the HMs should be coming in somewhere in the middle for dps. A HM Drake's 400 at 70km is too much. But it is all a matter of what lesser value for the HM Drake does not skew the pilot choice considerations too far toward the Harby.

Edit - And I feel sorta sad discussing this because part of me is wishing that Drake specialists could go through 4 years of what the Harbinger specialists endured. But then that would not be progress. So there it is. Don't nerf the Drake and HMs too much.

2nd edit - And the range and explosion parameters on TCs and TEs have to of course be careful, lest we get the ridiculous fits for those and we instead of nerfing Drake usuage actually end up with Drake total frig killers or Drake HM sniper or HAM kiters extraordinaire. I have faith that the Fozzie Ytterbium et al team can get the numbers right.

yes, but at the same time, you're making it unfair for turret boats.

The vast majority of ships in game use turrets, then you have a few here and there that use missiles, so why would I fit against missiles if I'm going to be seeing mostly turret boats, expecially after these nerfs?

Yes, I completely agree...i think the only change would be switching the PG needs of the HM and HAM's....it doesn't make sense to me that the short range weapon should need more PG as it makes the HMs easier to fit.

I also think they need to buff the Rails *extra range is pointless, most people don't care* and Laser's *while it should be a little lower since there is no cycle time compared to projectiles and Rails. Basically....why can't I get the same DPS *not volley damage, but dps* on any one of the 4 main BC's that everyone uses with the same basic damage mods?

When I first saw this topic yesterday, it was a fairly tame 10 page thread. Now it's a proper threadnaught.

The blowback is to be expected, given that drakes are the most commonly-used ship in both PvP and PvE, and HMLs are the most commonly-used weapon system for the most-commonly-used ship. MMO players get particularly angsty when a balance change hits their preferred playstyle.

As someone that's used the HML drake, I have to agree with the changes. HML was essentially the mid-sized weapon platform for projected damage. Arty canes were a distant second, inferior in DPS, tank, range, and vulnerability to things getting close. Their only advantage, alpha, was eclipsed by the introduction of the Tornado.

With HML in line, we can now see a proper re-balance of battlecruisers down the road.

Why would you, then? If you think you're only going to be seeing turret boats, by all means fit the turret disruptor.

Kinda, sorta.
I said it 4 months ago when I left. Missile nerfs have nothing to do with EVE. They are balancing Dust514. Caldari is just taking all the snot from it.

Nice empty posting, i will reply with a nice empty posting.

empty posting.

For all the alarmism about the fate of the Caldari ship line:

Drakes and Tengus are not the only Caldari ships in the game, believe it or not.

The light missile buff comes at a time when we're already seeing a profligacy of light missile snipers with the new frigates, as well as upcoming missile-based destroyers. The fact that TE and TC will now affect missiles gives Caldari pilots much more flexibility in fitting their ships, allowing for ranges and engagement envelopes previously unavailable to them.

And the new caracal will be amazing.


My big concern with this post is the potency of the tracking disruptor. It's currently already very popular because of how it can neuter turret ships. When it has the capacity to neuter everything, I can see it becoming a must-have mid-slot for solo and small gang roamers.

You know, you are late to this. And the discussion has really moved past the "just delete Caldari" exagerated angry unthinking replies. You should read more and focus on the rational discussion that is starting to occur.

You may have something valuable to contribute to that. But your emotional reaction to the proposed (and subject to much tweeking in itself) change is not really helping the thread at this time. Commiserate with people on voice comms or something (assuming they will all think as you presently do). Then come back to post your valuable thoughts and suggestions concerning the mechanics and stats of this change, after you have cleared that from your system.

edit - nice post Zarnack