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For the Love of Marauders
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stoicfaux
#41 - 2012-09-19 01:26:43 UTC
Ryshca wrote:

Vargur 800mm ac:__ 3,0 km + 36,0 km 462 dps, _6 km + 54km 423 dps

Golem Torpedos: __________ 30,4 km 499 dps, ______ 45km 449 dps
(no moduels fitted, all lvl5)

Yes, but when you fit modules on the Vargur, T1/Faction ammo is 4.2+72km with 1123 raw DPS (with RF ammo.) I rarely bother with barrage anymore.

Golem goes up to 40+km and 60km with T1/Faction or Javelins with two T2 range rigs and a 5% implant (i.e. expensive, mandatory fittings.) And 60km is still not enough for some missions.

Quote:
Looks fine for me, can someone explain what is wrong with the torps? Note that you can always change the dmg type to the one you need, an advantage you should consider.

Ammo switching between short and long range ammo. Needs 2-3 TPs plus the Golems TP bonus to work. You lose DPS to overkill. Volley counting. TPs in falloff complicate volley counting. Only 20 rounds in the launcher, so constant reloading. You often waste time waiting on drones to kill frigates.

By comparison the Vargur can immediately start popping frigates (it's rare when I have to launch drones.) AC800s have 120 rounds. It's very rare to have to reload in a pocket (i.e. you can switch off EFT's include 'reload time in DPS' switch.) The ACs do half the volley damage of torps which means there's less overkill. Guns hit instantly. ACs also have good damage selection (EM, Thermal and Explosive, with Guristas having thermal as their 2nd weakest resist.)

In my experience and when I was keeping numbers, the Vargur simply outperforms the Golem.


Quote:
If you want to use torps in a golem for max damage, fit a mwd to get into range. The only drawback the Golem has, is that there is no module to increase the range of missiles.

No on the MWD as well. Marauders wallow like a beached whale in terms of maneuverability. If you want to use an MWD then fly a Machariel. An MWD Mach is really, really, really nice when blitzing.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-09-19 02:03:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
snip


On top of that the amount of SP investment to fly a golem is tremendous.

You can't use faction launchers.
You can't use t1 range rigs.
You can't use a t2 shield booster.
You must have missile projection and missile bombardment at 5
You must use t2 launchers.
You must carry javelin torps.
You often waist volleys due to too many volleys against a target or miscalculating and firing too few volleys, thus requiring another volley.


These are just what I can think of off the top of my head.

However, to comment on what STOICFAUX said.

I actually care less about overkill on dps than I do waisted volleys.

Sure, reloading every 20 volleys sucks, but that's tolerable.

My biggest issue is waisted volleys.

I enjoy that the golem only uses 4 launchers and has massive volley damage because this means I'll use less ammo over all.

I'd rather take a BS out in 3-5 volleys than 8-10 volleys.

That means less isk spent on ammo.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#43 - 2012-09-19 06:09:50 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Danel Tosh wrote:
the Kronos Fails cause it uses railguns

You've lost me on this one. What's wrong with 850+ DPS at 35-45 km? Not counting sentries.


the fact that a nightmare can get 1100+ out to 50km.

Yeah, point taken. Just please tell me again, since when a Nightmare is a Marauder?

If we're going to compare apples to apples, take Paladin with tachs (have fun) or Vindi, which at similar level of pimpage deals 950-ish, plus four sentries ('cos scouts).
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-09-19 09:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryshca
Since this thread is abused by some to be a weapon system discussion thread and mainly about how bad missiles are:

"All Missiles
Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.
[...]
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)"

Tengu nerf:
"Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF."

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1936527&
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-09-19 09:05:02 UTC
fail
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#46 - 2012-09-19 13:29:17 UTC
The introduction of the noctis and the changes to pirate ships made marauders crap. Machs and noctises all the way.

I'd love to see them get buffed or reworked. Particularly if it'd make them useful for PVP.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-09-19 15:29:31 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The introduction of the noctis and the changes to pirate ships made marauders crap. Machs and noctises all the way.

I'd love to see them get buffed or reworked. Particularly if it'd make them useful for PVP.



Hell, a marauder pilot coming back in a noctis is more efficient than a marauder.


I used to use my spare 3 high slots for smartbombs to take out the close range frigs.
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-09-19 15:43:25 UTC
I used to use my spare 3 high slots for smartbombs to take out the close range frigs.[/quote]

Actually a bonus to smartbomb damage (or range) to replace the salvageing bonus would be helpfull on many marauders that have difficulty in dealing with smaller ships. a slight change in PG and CPU would be needed to fit them but it could be done.
And Marauders "CANNOT" be used as uber smartbomb suicide ganking ships (at least in Highsec) because of thier prohibitive price so not many worries on that issue.
thoughts?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-09-19 16:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Danel Tosh wrote:
Quote:
I used to use my spare 3 high slots for smartbombs to take out the close range frigs.


Actually a bonus to smartbomb damage (or range) to replace the salvageing bonus would be helpfull on many marauders that have difficulty in dealing with smaller ships. a slight change in PG and CPU would be needed to fit them but it could be done.
And Marauders "CANNOT" be used as uber smartbomb suicide ganking ships (at least in Highsec) because of thier prohibitive price so not many worries on that issue.
thoughts?



Well, due to the illegal nature of smart bombs, it could be very easy for someone to take advantage of a Marauder pilot by cloaking up to them within smartbomb range and getting the Marauder Pilot concorded.


However, this has brought up a pretty good idea in my mind.


Perhaps all the marauders could get bonuses towards small guns/launchers as well, so they could then use their 3 spare high slots to fit frigate popping dps.

So, in a golem you would have 4 torps and 3 rapid lights.


EDIT...

Actually, so that it's not taken advantage of, they could be given bonuses towards dps mods that specific ship wouldn't use so that they didn't attempt to simply fit more large mods.

So,

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-09-19 18:03:19 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Hell, a marauder pilot coming back in a noctis is more efficient than a marauder.


I used to use my spare 3 high slots for smartbombs to take out the close range frigs.


Why not giving them a bonus to slavage time then?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-09-19 18:20:01 UTC
Ryshca wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Hell, a marauder pilot coming back in a noctis is more efficient than a marauder.


I used to use my spare 3 high slots for smartbombs to take out the close range frigs.


Why not giving them a bonus to slavage time then?



Well, that was part of my initial post, but now that I've thought about it.

Since we have a dedicated salvaging boat, perhaps we could simply do away with that bonus system all together and go with something like I've suggested in my last post that would essentially make Marauders dedicated to the slaughter of npcs in all forms.

I'll quote it for you.

Quote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.


I think that marauder pilots would enjoy this bonusing system much more than a salvaging bonus.
This on top of some other balancing changes would give people that mission(/whatever other npc slaughtering activities they might get involved in) a ship that would be the epic sauce of what we do.
kerradeph
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-09-19 19:33:53 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.

why not make it so that it's the same weapon systems, so small and large energy weapons, small and large missiles, small and large hybrids, and small and large projectiles for all the marauders respectively. this way, the weapon damage mods/rigs would stack with both the weapons and would make it a little nicer.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-09-19 19:38:43 UTC
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.

why not make it so that it's the same weapon systems, so small and large energy weapons, small and large missiles, small and large hybrids, and small and large projectiles for all the marauders respectively. this way, the weapon damage mods/rigs would stack with both the weapons and would make it a little nicer.



Well, the reasoning behind not giving them the same systems is because you would essentially be giving the golem 7 launcher hard points, which means if it wanted to, it could stack the hell out of torps and have a good 1800dps if fitted right.

Granted, that would probably be untanked, but whatever.

Now, if they we forced to use a different damage module such as the marauder getting hybrids, then it would be given 3 turret hard points and to keep them from fitting large guns, they would only be bonused towards small guns.

Now, the respective bonuses with these turrets/launchers would be around say 200 dps at all skills lvl 5, which would be pretty good against frigs.
kerradeph
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-09-19 19:41:01 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.

why not make it so that it's the same weapon systems, so small and large energy weapons, small and large missiles, small and large hybrids, and small and large projectiles for all the marauders respectively. this way, the weapon damage mods/rigs would stack with both the weapons and would make it a little nicer.



Well, the reasoning behind not giving them the same systems is because you would essentially be giving the golem 7 launcher hard points, which means if it wanted to, it could stack the hell out of torps and have a good 1800dps if fitted right.

Granted, that would probably be untanked, but whatever.

Now, if they we forced to use a different damage module such as the marauder getting hybrids, then it would be given 3 turret hard points and to keep them from fitting large guns, they would only be bonused towards small guns.

Now, the respective bonuses with these turrets/launchers would be around say 200 dps at all skills lvl 5, which would be pretty good against frigs.

oh, I get where you're going with that. so just having different hardpoints to stop them from being even able to stack. but that would still possibly let them stack large guns and large missiles.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-09-19 19:48:37 UTC
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.

why not make it so that it's the same weapon systems, so small and large energy weapons, small and large missiles, small and large hybrids, and small and large projectiles for all the marauders respectively. this way, the weapon damage mods/rigs would stack with both the weapons and would make it a little nicer.



Well, the reasoning behind not giving them the same systems is because you would essentially be giving the golem 7 launcher hard points, which means if it wanted to, it could stack the hell out of torps and have a good 1800dps if fitted right.

Granted, that would probably be untanked, but whatever.

Now, if they we forced to use a different damage module such as the marauder getting hybrids, then it would be given 3 turret hard points and to keep them from fitting large guns, they would only be bonused towards small guns.

Now, the respective bonuses with these turrets/launchers would be around say 200 dps at all skills lvl 5, which would be pretty good against frigs.

oh, I get where you're going with that. so just having different hardpoints to stop them from being even able to stack. but that would still possibly let them stack large guns and large missiles.


They could, possibly for POS bashing, however, due to the fact that they wouldn't have any bonuses towards the large guns, they wouldn't be effective by any means.

The bonuses on the small weapons for the marauders would give them (again) around 200 dps all skills lvl 5 with the small guns and say, navy ammo, but that is more than enough for frigs and they would have awesome tracking/exp radius and velocity bonuses for these small weapons so they they would be highly effective against npc frigs without the need of damage or tracking and related mods.
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#56 - 2012-09-19 20:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Throktar
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
kerradeph wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

Golem
4 Launcher hard points with bonuses to cruise missiles and torps
3 turret hardpoints with bonuses towards tracking and damage of small hybrid turrets

Paladin, Vargur, and Kronos
4 turret hard points with bonuses to their specific turrets
3 launcher hardpoints with bonuses towards rocket launchers or perhaps rapid light launchers


This keeps them from attempting to overfit their large weapon dps.

why not make it so that it's the same weapon systems, so small and large energy weapons, small and large missiles, small and large hybrids, and small and large projectiles for all the marauders respectively. this way, the weapon damage mods/rigs would stack with both the weapons and would make it a little nicer.



Well, the reasoning behind not giving them the same systems is because you would essentially be giving the golem 7 launcher hard points, which means if it wanted to, it could stack the hell out of torps and have a good 1800dps if fitted right.

Granted, that would probably be untanked, but whatever.

Now, if they we forced to use a different damage module such as the marauder getting hybrids, then it would be given 3 turret hard points and to keep them from fitting large guns, they would only be bonused towards small guns.

Now, the respective bonuses with these turrets/launchers would be around say 200 dps at all skills lvl 5, which would be pretty good against frigs.

oh, I get where you're going with that. so just having different hardpoints to stop them from being even able to stack. but that would still possibly let them stack large guns and large missiles.


I love the idea of adding small weapon systems to the Marauders. Especially if the are the opposite of the normal weapon system. It would give me a reason to train missile skills. Marauders are supposed to be the best pve ships in the game, and sadly they are no longer any where near that role. This would bring a well deserved bit of fresh air to the class again. I also believe the superiority of the Noctis has given a good reason to overhaul the class in general.

What I would do to all Marauders: Lower the signature radius. Remove tractor role bonus and replace with a Role Bonus that provided 50% reduced duration or effectiveness of all NPC Ewar effects. Use the OP idea and have 2 high slots on each ship that can only fit small weapon systems. This still leaves one utility high slot on all ships.

Paladin: Drop the web bonus and replace with a tracking bonus, or at least give it an optimal range bonus like all the other ships with this hull. More power grid to help with fitting. 10% bonus to repair modules instead of 7.5%

Golem: Add a bonus to speed up the duration of target painters by what ever % it takes to make it useful. Fix cruise missiles.

Vargur: Good ship already, just give it the bonuses form above.

Kronos: 10% bonus to repair modules instead of 7.5%. Some others I'm sure, but I am not as familiar with the specifics of piloting this ship.
kerradeph
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-09-19 20:47:10 UTC
actually, since we're on this topic, I might as well bring the entire post that I made a while back.
I remember there being quite a few things that people wanted to fix with this, but also, quite a few people seemed to agree.
Quote:
Kronos
* Increase Scan Resolution to 105-110 mm at the least.
** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 175m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 800.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 125m3.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 2,000.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 100 and Drone Bay to 100m3.

Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 100 and Drone Bay to 100m3.

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
* change the 7.5% repair boost to a 5.5% resist boost per level.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 10% bonus to repair amount added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 115%.

this will put their total damage up, but not as much as it would otherwise, this will probably bring them to be in line with pirate BSs damage wise.
this level of complex ship, no matter what faction, would have at the very least a decent complement of drones. of course, the gallente would have more favoritism towards drones so they have a larger drone bay allowing replacements or to carry different types of drones.
I've taken a look at the numbers, and it would seem that 5.5 bonus to resists will equate to almost identical effect on reppers as the 7.5 does currently. this also allows for more of a buffer tank, or an equal tank while having a more effective ship.
the 10% additional repair bonus means that we have an even more powerful tank. this I would consider reasonable considering these are supposed to be some of the most advanced subcap ships out there.
there was one idea put up on another thread about giving specific NPC EWar resists to the different ships. something like paladin, resists cap warfare. golum, resists EWar. Kronos, resists weapon dampening. and vargur, resists webbing. or something like that.
one thing I suggested, but it was either ignored or people didn't like it was to give literal resists to all the various NPC EWar so that all marauders are something like 80% less effected by all forms of EWar then other ships would be. this would mean that we would still have to worry about them, but we could shrug them off a lot more easily.
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#58 - 2012-09-19 21:20:29 UTC
kerradeph wrote:
actually, since we're on this topic, I might as well bring the entire post that I made a while back.
I remember there being quite a few things that people wanted to fix with this, but also, quite a few people seemed to agree.
Quote:
Kronos
* Increase Scan Resolution to 105-110 mm at the least.
** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 175m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 800.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 125m3.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Increase Power Grid by 2,000.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 100 and Drone Bay to 100m3.

Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level.
*** Increase Drone Bandwidth to 100 and Drone Bay to 100m3.

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
* change the 7.5% repair boost to a 5.5% resist boost per level.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 10% bonus to repair amount added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 115%.

this will put their total damage up, but not as much as it would otherwise, this will probably bring them to be in line with pirate BSs damage wise.
this level of complex ship, no matter what faction, would have at the very least a decent complement of drones. of course, the gallente would have more favoritism towards drones so they have a larger drone bay allowing replacements or to carry different types of drones.
I've taken a look at the numbers, and it would seem that 5.5 bonus to resists will equate to almost identical effect on reppers as the 7.5 does currently. this also allows for more of a buffer tank, or an equal tank while having a more effective ship.
the 10% additional repair bonus means that we have an even more powerful tank. this I would consider reasonable considering these are supposed to be some of the most advanced subcap ships out there.
there was one idea put up on another thread about giving specific NPC EWar resists to the different ships. something like paladin, resists cap warfare. golum, resists EWar. Kronos, resists weapon dampening. and vargur, resists webbing. or something like that.
one thing I suggested, but it was either ignored or people didn't like it was to give literal resists to all the various NPC EWar so that all marauders are something like 80% less effected by all forms of EWar then other ships would be. this would mean that we would still have to worry about them, but we could shrug them off a lot more easily.


+1
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-09-20 18:36:34 UTC
bump
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-09-22 01:59:17 UTC
I'm still getting likes on this thread, but no one is commenting.