Science & Industry

I never noticed that some Faction items were T2 items from a production standpoint.

By the way, all the materials are equally easy to gather. Fly to Jita > Buy.

They are, however, much like T1 items from a skill requirement standpoint.


I won't tell you things like "it would be no fun" or "it would require venturing into enemy region" - you won't accept that, I'm afraid. Instead, I remind about prerequisite of 3 perfect skills, as opposed to just Industry I for "normal" BPCs.


FWIK, most (if not all) T2 items require planetary components for production - so I guess there would be enough demand still, even with faction items made from minerals. At least, some of them. The latest patch, which made certain damagemods easier to manufacture, didn't affect market prices of these components, after all. This change was definitely a GOOD THING - just a pity it was a bit too little step...

I have not been around long enough to know what expansion added what items, but there are some T1 items that behave more like T2 items when it comes to manufacturing and blueprint research. One that comes to mind are deep core mining lasers. Rather than Industry 1, like most T1 items, it requires Industry 5 like a T2 bpo. To copy it, you need datasheets like a T2 bpo. To do ME/PE research, you need reports like a T2 bpo.

From the static data dump, the query:
will get you all the tech 1 items that need data sheets to do production efficiency research. 96 of the 101 items are faction items that only appear in-game as bpc from faction stores (example: Caldari Navy Co-Processor Blueprint).

My wild suspicion is that the 5 items were originally intended to be BPC-only from faction stores, such as the deep core mining laser from ORE.

1. Fair.

2. Not weeks unless you were ignoring massively important fitting skills that you need for any halfway decent missioning setup anyway. Maybe A week.

3. Nobody's making you buy BPCs that you can't build. Isn't it possible that the reason you want to buy them (the fact that they provide a good return on your LP) is a result of that slightly increased skill intensity?

Faction items you LP convert aren't free. If it's not about the LP conversion rate, grab something that's easy to build and converts LP to isk at the same rate, sell it, and buy the hard to build item. The beauty of the monetary system is that you can trade for things you want and need.

Second, which patch. Grab the patch notes (or look through the various external data dumps and find out which patch changed things, if any). I suspect that the semi-T2 nature of them is a holdover from a long time ago.



So? The newcomer is free to buy BPCs they can build and items that don't need building from the faction store. New people have to train skills before being able to do the most efficient form of any activity.



EVE, like Life, isn't Fair. EVE is a level playing field, which is quite possibly the least fair type of playing field possible as it tends to magnify the differences between individuals (including temporal differences i.e. Newbie vs Vet).

The great thing about it is that you're free to work for any faction and fly any ship you want. The preponderance of Caldari characters is an accident of history, as Caldari Achura used to be wildly overpowered.

If you have any evidence that CCP Devs are making changes to the game in order to benefit certain players, CCP does have an IA Department that you can contact(and there are plenty of 3rd party news sites that would be happy to run that evidence to make CCP blush).

Where did I ever say or suggest that you shouldn't be asking for changes that benefit you?

It would seem to me the developers are working on exactly what you are asking for. They can not fix everything in one patch. If you are correct that some of the BPC requirements have been adjusted in a recent patch than I would assume (can not be bothered to verify if this is correct or not) the Minmatar faction BPC's have already been looked at and adjusted, and they just have not gotten to the Gallentine faction BPC's yet.

As far as your other points go. You can not expect as a new player to do everything right out of the gate. Skills like electronics, engineering, mechanics, industry, etc, are core skills and very easy to train. If you choose not to train them to 5 until later than do not complain about not being able to do the things that those skills unlock. EVE is a game full of choices, If you want to do a certain activity then you need to train up the skills to do that activity. If you choose not to rain the skills, then you can not do that activity until you do. If you could then what advantage would there be in having a 100 million skill point character??

To explain this in a way you may find easier to understand I will use an example of another activity new players get involved in where there is aspects they want that are out of there reach due to skill limitations.

Take for example mining. lots of new players get into mining before moving on to other less boring activities. The skill requirements to get into a decent mining ship are well within the reach of a 2-3 month old character. Just as the basic manufacturing skills are well within the reach of a new character.

However if you want to get maximum yield and mine gravametric sites the skill requirements are much higher, Just as manufacturing from higher end BPO's, BPC's, or Tech 2 require much higher skills.

Gravametric sites,even in high sec are among the hardest sites to scan down. If you do not have near max scanning skills most gravametric sites will not even show up in your scan results. If a new player who has chosen to pursue a mining career complains about not being able to find any gravametric sites to mine in whose fault is it?

If he has chosen to not train the needed scanning skills at this point in his skill plan, then he can not access this game content until he trains the needed skills. It is by his choice, not by bad game design.

Manufacturing is the same. If you want to manufacture items that have higher skill requirements than you have to train the skills needed to do so. If you have other skills that you want to train as higher priority than you will not be able to access that content until you train those required skills.

I do understand the point you were making about most minmatar faction BPC's having only basic skill requirements while nearly half of the galentine faction BPC's had basically T2 requirements.

The way I see it there is only two possible reasons for this imbalance. Either way would require your claim to recent changes to be true so I will not question that. The developers must be in the process of making changes to these BPC's. When they do things like this they generally do one race at a time.

option #1 they are reducing these BPC's requirements to be more inline with their T1 counterparts with the only obsicle being the loyalty points required to buy the BPC's. In this case it would seem that the minmatar have already had their pass and they have not gotten to the gallentine yet.

Option #2 would be that they are making faction mods more in line with T2 to make the added benifit of using them a little harder to acquire. In this case it would seem that the gallentine have already had their pass and they have not done minmatar yet.

I can not say which way it is going, as I have not be following the manufacturing requirements of faction mods. All I can say is if you are correct nice catch. But what I said before holds true. If you choose to put off training skills required to access certain content in favor of training other skills, than it is not the developers fault that that content is not accessible to you. It is like a level 10 WOW player complaining they can not run raids. It takes time to unlock higher end content. be patient.

It would be pretty damn nice if you were right... I just hope they won't start fixing BPCs race by race (i.e. first all matar BPCs, then, say, all caldari ones, and so forth). but rather start with most useful of them - a few here, a few there.


It doesn't look to be true. Manufacturing in EVE attracts my attention, so I've gathered quite a few guides over internet. Some of them are rather ancient - for example, tags needed for BPCs are named "Gallente Navy ..." instead of "Federation Navy ...", and their amounts are different as well. Though, material requirements are much the same. So it looks like devs are actually going in the direction described in "option #1" - from moonmats to minerals.


You don't really have to use that many words to describe such a simple thing. I have nothing against training and levelling which unlocks certain activities, unavailable to newbies - in general. Though, the thing that bothers me is called "imbalance". Using your example: imagine a game where lvl10 orc is able to participate in raid, while lvl 10 dwarf is not - and you understand me... hopefully.

Yes I know everyone can move to famous blood regious and farm red crosses with juicy loot/salvage, producing nifty sinks by the way for quick cash. Though, I think it's not quite the intended scenario... What's the point to be a Gallente, then?

Sometimes I wonder: are you really serious, or just trying to make fun of me? Do you simply fail to understand such concept as, for example, role-play? Do you fail to understand the fact that race and side are something a bit more than appearance, staring station plus a few skills? Do you really reject the idea of need for equal possibilities for PC races? Or you are just really confident in the "fact" that these possibilities ARE equal, no matter of what?

I try to explain it once more, for the last time. Example I: being a newbie Amarr (or just being one who chose to work for Amarr, which is much the same), you just go, pick a corresponding corporation, farm some LP and convert them at rather decent rate into a BPC for sinks mentioned above. It requires no skills and no moonmats. Moreover, you can repeat this process every day, because there is always demand for these damagemods. All Caldari and Amarr can say "hail!" here, and applaud Game Masters which made it possible a few weeks ago. Minmatar pilots don't even have to applaud: according to item databases, their gyro BPCs were much like this for ages.

Now, example II: being a newbie Gallente, you have to either -
a) convert your LP into BPCs of useful items... and store them, until you are able use them in manufacturing some 2 months later, once you get some time to train corresponding skills;
or
b) purchase some another BPC, with low requirements... and sell your modules for ages, playing 0.01 isk games, because there is no demand for them;
or
c) collect lots of LPs for a faction battleship - at a LP-to-isk rate which is lower than temperature at the North Pole;
or, finally
d) go to seek for a better life under the command of agents of some another race.

See? It's not about being unable to buy materials, or buy some ready-made faction modules - it's all about possibilities for a newbie player. But, well, if it still sounds like "fair" to you, then I should probably quit my attempts to explain something...


BPCs mentioned above required completely different set of skills and materials just some 4-6 weeks ago. One's memory can't be THAT short to demand any proof of it, so I just have to assume that you've never actually been an agentrunner nor a faction manufacturer. Let me ask please: if I'm right, why does this topic bother you so much? It was actually started for ones deeply "employed" in this area, as well as for CCP "ears".

You seem to miss, somehow, the fact that faction ammo, implants and other common / well known ways to cash LP are available to every race. I don't mention things, equal to everyone, as it looks like waste of time for me (not for you, though, it seems). Saying the word "unfair", I mention severe DIFFERENCES in possibilities.

Oh, and btw... If I cared just about LP, their rates and income on my wallet, I could have created an Amarr character, or rather could have just started to work for Carthum or smth alike, shooting down Federation ships in the process without any remorse, just to loot some valuable colonel tags. But I don't. It should be suprising for you, probably. What a pity.