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in terms of fitted ships lost per day, what do you think hi sec income shoukd cover?
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Din Chao
#21 - 2012-09-19 15:52:40 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
CCP probably want people in high sec to earn enough isk to pay for plex. Some people feel high sec profits are too high, but those high sec profits are what keeps CCP in business.


It should be impossible to make enough isk for plex in hisec imo. Having the safest activities in game generate enough isk to plex your characters goes against the risk-vs-reward ethos of EVE Online.

Besides, it's a stupid goal anyway, because look what happened when incursionfaucets were introduced: Plex prices jumped.

So no station trading?

And can someone link me to this "ethos of EVE Online"
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#22 - 2012-09-19 16:00:40 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Assuming 3 hours of game play in a day, what level of t2 fitted t1 hulls do you feel the following hi sec careers should earn isk wise? (basically wondering how much isk grinding do you think each career path should you have to do to cover in pvp expenses)

Average Level 4 mission runner (this means battleship, average skills)
Low skill retriever miner
High skill hulk/mac miner
Planet interaction specialist only (assume a full 24 hour planet cycle)
T1 manufacturer
T2 manufacturer
Incursion runner

In other word:
Average lvl 4 missioner: 2 t2 fitted cruisers in a day
Low skill miner: 1 t2 fitted frig
High skill miner: 1 t2 fitted cruiser
Pi: 1 t2 fitted frig
T1 manufacture: 1 t2 fitted frig every 2 days
T2 mod: 1 t2 fitted cruiser
Incursion runner: no clue.


I thought this was a well thought out question that (apparently) no one wanted to bother answering honestly... So here goes (with one change, I will give mine in terms of PLEX because I think it's a better standard).

Lvl 4 Mission Runner: 50 hours for Plex (roughly one month at 2 hours per night 5 nights a week)
Low Skill Miner: 75 hours for Plex
High Skill Miner: 40 hours for Plex
PI: 2 Months for Plex (per character... so if you want to fully train up all three of your alts and dedicate your life to PI, you could plex your account at about a 2/3 ratio)
T1 Manufacturer: 2 months for Plex
T2 Manufacturer: slightly less than 1 month per plex
Incursion runner: no idea
Faction Warfare: 1.5 months for Plex
Null-Sec Ratter: 1/2 months for Plex (recognizing that NOONE in null-sec spends all their time ratting)

Essentially, Plexing your account should be hard but not impossible unless you play more than "casually" (which I set as 2 hours per night, 5 nights per week).
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#23 - 2012-09-19 16:02:03 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Assuming 3 hours of game play in a day, what level of t2 fitted t1 hulls do you feel the following hi sec careers should earn isk wise? (basically wondering how much isk grinding do you think each career path should you have to do to cover in pvp expenses)

Average Level 4 mission runner (this means battleship, average skills)
Low skill retriever miner
High skill hulk/mac miner
Planet interaction specialist only (assume a full 24 hour planet cycle)
T1 manufacturer
T2 manufacturer
Incursion runner

In other word:
Average lvl 4 missioner: 2 t2 fitted cruisers in a day
Low skill miner: 1 t2 fitted frig
High skill miner: 1 t2 fitted cruiser
Pi: 1 t2 fitted frig
T1 manufacture: 1 t2 fitted frig every 2 days
T2 mod: 1 t2 fitted cruiser
Incursion runner: no clue.


That makes no sense. You should earn what you put in and essentially restricting the amount of isk one can earn per day would ruin the economy. I see this topic as a "nerf highsec income" thread but it seems to me like almost all "L33t" 0.0 PVPer have highsec alts for indy/trade stuff so nerfing highsec would indirectly hurt their income as awell.

If you want highsec to be brought in line with 0.0 income how about CCP fix the FW "exploit" or nerf 0.0 anoms to make them as profitable as L4. Yep that's right I said it. Easily making 60-90mil/hr running anoms in complete safety aka NAP fest 0.0 seems more carbearish to me than flying around highsec with all the "L33t 0.0 pvper" ganking industrials and mission boats. Ugh
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-09-19 16:05:13 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
CCP probably want people in high sec to earn enough isk to pay for plex. Some people feel high sec profits are too high, but those high sec profits are what keeps CCP in business.


It should be impossible to make enough isk for plex in hisec imo. Having the safest activities in game generate enough isk to plex your characters goes against the risk-vs-reward ethos of EVE Online.

Besides, it's a stupid goal anyway, because look what happened when incursionfaucets were introduced: Plex prices jumped.


So, let me Show you how terrible your idea is;

500 mil isk/160 hours = 3,125,000 misk per hour.

So no fuckin way did you think that out.

Also, I hate hearing about there's no risk vs reward in hisec.

I started out in a frig mining and doing level 1's. Absolutely minimal reward. Huge risk. Dessies didn't do it for me so moved on to cruiser. Slightly less risk, reward is still negligible. Then BC. At least you can't get solo'd if you don't react to aggression now, but anyone can stop you from mining, and can totally ninja your missions. Then finally you get your battleship and after a year of skilling you can make great loot in hisec. Where you can be taken out by any 4 asshats that know what they are doing.
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#25 - 2012-09-19 16:13:43 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
CCP probably want people in high sec to earn enough isk to pay for plex. Some people feel high sec profits are too high, but those high sec profits are what keeps CCP in business.


It should be impossible to make enough isk for plex in hisec imo. Having the safest activities in game generate enough isk to plex your characters goes against the risk-vs-reward ethos of EVE Online.

Besides, it's a stupid goal anyway, because look what happened when incursionfaucets were introduced: Plex prices jumped.

And lol ratting in carriers or PIMP fit faction BS 24/7 in NAP fest 0.0 is very dangerous.Ugh
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#26 - 2012-09-19 16:29:36 UTC
Arcosian wrote:


That makes no sense. You should earn what you put in and essentially restricting the amount of isk one can earn per day would ruin the economy. I see this topic as a "nerf highsec income" thread but it seems to me like almost all "L33t" 0.0 PVPer have highsec alts for indy/trade stuff so nerfing highsec would indirectly hurt their income as awell.

If you want highsec to be brought in line with 0.0 income how about CCP fix the FW "exploit" or nerf 0.0 anoms to make them as profitable as L4. Yep that's right I said it. Easily making 60-90mil/hr running anoms in complete safety aka NAP fest 0.0 seems more carbearish to me than flying around highsec with all the "L33t 0.0 pvper" ganking industrials and mission boats. Ugh


That's not what she was saying. In fact, by putting it in terms of ships she was trying to take the "isk" issue out of it. Absolutely you should get out of it what you put in. But the question is, "how much work should you need for a specific amount of reward".

I think it's fair to also ask, "How fast should you accrue wealth from ganking?"

Should 10 hours of ganking (and the commensurate time repairing your sec status) result in 1 plex? 1/3 a plex? A net loss in wealth? It's a fair question.

Likewise, it's a fair question to say, "What is the appropriate rate of wealth gain (defining wealth in a non-isk way) for various hi-sec activities?"

Ultimately, the market can determine certain items but because of certain factors (direct ISK injected due to missions and rats, for example) CCP has established ratios that cannot be altered by the market. I think this thread gets to the heart of the question:

Are the ratios of reward accurate? Is the bounty curve on rats what it should be? Are the directly injected ISK rewards from missions where they should be?

That's a perfectly valid question to ask.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#27 - 2012-09-19 16:32:54 UTC
How come ganking freighters in high sec isn't on the list? Isn't that a source of high sec income?
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#28 - 2012-09-19 16:50:32 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
How come ganking freighters in high sec isn't on the list? Isn't that a source of high sec income?


I read the intent as being to include all sources of hi-sec income

So Datacore aggregation
hi-sec ganking
etc

SHOULD be on the list

my two cents: 3 months of 3 alts doing datacores should result in a plex
hi-sec ganking: I don't know enough to know the ratio of "ganking time" vs. "repair security standing time" that's needed but I think this one will ultimately just have to be market driven. If you can gank a freighter with 5 billion in profit then you've got your plex and ultimately the carebears will decide how often a lonely freighter with 10 billion in stuff (half is destroyed) comes through Uedama / Niarja.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#29 - 2012-09-19 17:04:00 UTC
Posting in a ... thread.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#30 - 2012-09-19 19:02:20 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but I make as much as the effort I put in. That is the way it should work, if someone can make 200 mil in that 3 hours, they deserve it. If someone makes 20 mil in that 3 hours, they deserve it.



Ugh gross, I'm entitled to others isk.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#31 - 2012-09-19 19:15:55 UTC
3 hours of work in highsec might be worth 10 mil. Maybe...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Sakiya Shiratori
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-09-19 20:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakiya Shiratori
Having a basic understanding of economy is apparantly not a requirement to play this game..

You don't control the market by limiting the available funds. What happens is that anything that can be used in High sec will plumit in price while the buying power will remain the same.

Nullsec players will get a cheap supply of ships though. LIke when a scandinavian travels to Africa and realise that his pocketchange is enough to buy a small village. Sounds fun right? Everything up to BS will have basically no value.

Only then will you realise that it isn't fun to shoot at stuff that doesn' t cry. Have fun
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#33 - 2012-09-19 20:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Seminole Sun
Sakiya Shiratori wrote:
Having a basic understanding of economy is apparantly not a requirement to play this game..

You don't control the market by limiting the available funds. What happens is that anything that can be used in High sec will plumit in price while the buying power will remain the same.

Nullsec players will get a cheap supply of ships though. LIke when a scandinavian travels to Africa and realise that his pocketchange is enough to buy a small village. Sounds fun right? Everything up to BS will have basically no value.

Only then will you realise that it isn't fun to shoot at stuff that doesn' t cry. Have fun


The very nature of the OP shows that they understood the basics of the economics. They weren't asking for proposed isk vs. time numbers. They were asking for ship vs. time numbers which is a completely valid construct (I happen to think Plex vs. time is a BETTER indicator but whatever).

The vitriol on this thread is very odd to me as it seemed to be a perfectly valid question.

Ultimately, the question of how much is mining worth is fairly well answered by game mechanics. I can mine xx% of the minerals needed for a cruiser every hour. Therefore mining is worth yy cruisers / hour. That's fairly straighforward. ISK per hour rewards are also established by game mechanic but largely from lvl 4 missions and ratting (the major isk faucets in the game IIRC).

Most everything else is set by the market.

So the question becomes, what values should CCP try to navigate towards? What's wrong with that question?

Edit: As it turns out, the Incursus (currently a pretty good PVP ship, I understand) is actually a pretty good proxy for this. At high skills, you can fill up a Mackinaw in ~30 minutes. If I've done my math right, in that Mackinaw you can fit ~15530 Veldspar, 36240 Scordite, 82455 Plagioclase and 151 Kernite. Those ratios provide the materials needed for 17 Incursus (there's a little bit of spillover extra and, yes, I realize that you need 400 kernite to refine so you'd technically need three full loads for a total of 3x 17 Incursus... but whatever).

So the answer is that about 2 minutes of high skill mining time is equivalent to one (completely unfit) Incursus. That ratio is established by game mechanics and will never change (no matter what the price of minerals does).
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-09-19 20:41:28 UTC
Ah another shanty town inhabitant that could not root inside the fold of civil Empire Space.
But now, in slavery of his warlord he is in the poorhouse and logically does not look for the real problem within his soul.

Of course our supreme level of living in this civilized area called Empire Space is the fault of his complete failure as a immortal pod pilot.

It is sad enough, lets just nod in compassion for this lost soul...before we send him back to the gutter of New Eden to live out the rest of his eternal pod pilot life.


Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Methesda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-09-19 22:49:41 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
How come ganking freighters in high sec isn't on the list? Isn't that a source of high sec income?


If you turn your portraits body to your right a bit Silk, so that your shoulder comes out of that shadow, we'll all see the chip on your shoulder so much easier, and you wouldn't have to post.

Eve is about the journey.  If you are so focused on making money, that you insist on having the tools to make it be made as autonomous and easy as possible, then you are never going to have as much fun as I will.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#36 - 2012-09-19 23:02:14 UTC
It's called fun/hr or fun/ISK

never not fun/hr Cool

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#37 - 2012-09-20 09:25:17 UTC
Arcosian wrote:
And lol ratting in carriers or PIMP fit faction BS 24/7 in NAP fest 0.0 is very dangerous.Ugh


Carebear fallacy #3928: Nullsec is not dangerous (then why aren't YOU out ratting there, mr carebear?)
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#38 - 2012-09-20 09:45:06 UTC
Just use real money to pay for accounts and buy ships. Gypsies P

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Arec Bardwin
#39 - 2012-09-20 09:51:37 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
in terms of fitted ships lost per day, what do you think hi sec income shoukd cover?
ONE MIRRION ISK!
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#40 - 2012-09-20 09:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ratcliffe
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It should be impossible to make enough isk for plex in hisec imo. Having the safest activities in game generate enough isk to plex your characters goes against the risk-vs-reward ethos of EVE Online.


What a stupid attitude. I really don't understand this ******** idea that Hi-Sec must be crap because it's safe. Why should they lose their ships to tard griefers who can't get their fun any other way?

If it was up to me, there would be NO griefing of ANY kind in Hi-Sec. No suiciding, no can flipping, no scamming - nothing. Hi-Sec isn't Hi-Sec enough IMHO. Going to Low-Sec or Null should be a concious decision, and I don't accept that the rewards in Hi-Sec should be poor just because there's less danger.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose