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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#241 - 2012-09-19 12:15:04 UTC
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2012-09-19 12:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Wivabel
Just to help those of you out who would like to see the stats of the new thorax fit up a navy exequror. It is damn close to the proposed rax.

rail thorax looks to be a good option. I am starting to get excited.


CCP fix the penalties on rigs so I can still armor tank this without the massive penalties to speed.

make each level of rigging skill reduce the negative effects by 20%. Do this for all rigs. Calibration is already a limiting factor in rigging and It will take training time for us to get the full benefit. Come on doooooo it you know you want to.

Armor will still be slower than shield because of skills/plates but it will not be the huge gap that it is now that armor rarely can recover from.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#243 - 2012-09-19 12:59:14 UTC
Removing penalties from active-tanking rigs is fine, but mobility penalties on HP rigs should be retained, and extended to shield rigs. Forcing a choice between mobility and EHP is good design.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#244 - 2012-09-19 13:03:57 UTC
Either give the stabber a 5th turret slot or change a hi to a mid. Right now it's ultimately trash.

The thorax coming a close second in terms of how bad it is. Give it a falloff bonus instead of a trash tracking bonus.

The new caracal is a face-melter and the omen is so good that i'm going to train amarr.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#245 - 2012-09-19 13:05:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Removing penalties from active-tanking rigs is fine, but mobility penalties on HP rigs should be retained, and extended to shield rigs. Forcing a choice between mobility and EHP is good design.


Agree'd. *brick* fits should be a shield thing too. perhaps nerfing AB/MWD speed with shield rigs so it's a little different than the flat armor rig speed nerf.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#246 - 2012-09-19 13:05:47 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.


Now put HAM's on it and rejoice.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#247 - 2012-09-19 13:25:17 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.



Hams + TE/TC's man..

Thats the way to go!

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rayner Vanguard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2012-09-19 13:34:47 UTC
Looking at the buff on Thorax, the Thorax is supposed to be an agile ship
So, the ship should be fitted with shield to maximize its strength as a blaster ship (and probably kiter ship with rails)

Omen:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)

Caracal:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700(+137) / 1200(+145) / 1500(+171)

Thorax:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)

Stabber:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)

I don't want to count the hull, unless hull tanking existsRoll

Shield + armor :
Omen have 2900
Caracal have 2900
Thorax have 2800
Stabber have 2900

See the problem?

Please add more shield to Thorax
I don't mind if you have to substract the hull point because of that. It's useless anyway
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#249 - 2012-09-19 13:49:30 UTC
Rayner,

That was my initial thought as well (it has a big sig as well) but you can't just forget the dps advantage of hybrids. What it lacks in tank, it gains in gank.

And hull is real buffer before you pop, in small ships every HP counts, as the dps your ideal targets is not that high. I recall most frig and cruiser RvB fights ending with the winner in hull. Smoking fights, best fights!

.
Mehall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2012-09-19 13:50:44 UTC
Rayner Vanguard wrote:
Looking at the buff on Thorax, the Thorax is supposed to be an agile ship
So, the ship should be fitted with shield to maximize its strength as a blaster ship (and probably kiter ship with rails)

Omen:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)

Caracal:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700(+137) / 1200(+145) / 1500(+171)

Thorax:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)

Stabber:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)

I don't want to count the hull, unless hull tanking existsRoll

Shield + armor :
Omen have 2900
Caracal have 2900
Thorax have 2800
Stabber have 2900

See the problem?

Please add more shield to Thorax
I don't mind if you have to substract the hull point because of that. It's useless anyway


They already ARE subtracting hull HP. The "+" is a typo, it's a -175 change. The Thorax is getting it's overall HP nerfed a noticeable amount
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#251 - 2012-09-19 14:00:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Current dual-BCS Caracal: 263 DPS kinetic, 210 non-kinetic, with CN to 120 km, 8.4 km/s missiles.
Future triple-BCS Caracal: 252 DPS all damage types with CN to 90 km, 9 km/s missiles.

I'm glad to see the Caracal surviving the deserved HML Drake/Tengu nerf fine.



Hams + TE/TC's man..

Thats the way to go!


No no no.... HMLs, sitting at range applying four link-Proteus-boosted tracking disruptors. P
Actually that'll work with HAMs too. TDs on everything!
Rayner Vanguard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2012-09-19 14:28:04 UTC
Mehall wrote:


They already ARE subtracting hull HP. The "+" is a typo, it's a -175 change. The Thorax is getting it's overall HP nerfed a noticeable amount

You're right!
Current Thorax is 1875
Sorry for not noticing it

Roime wrote:
Rayner,

That was my initial thought as well (it has a big sig as well) but you can't just forget the dps advantage of hybrids. What it lacks in tank, it gains in gank.

And hull is real buffer before you pop, in small ships every HP counts, as the dps your ideal targets is not that high. I recall most frig and cruiser RvB fights ending with the winner in hull. Smoking fights, best fights!



Well, I was wrong
In fact, whole Thorax defends is nerfed

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(-175)

Thorax current hull is 1875

I don't want Thorax to be another Diemost (Deimos if you don't know what I meant)

And, Thorax's price is also higher than other attack cruiser due to the mineral requirement
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#253 - 2012-09-19 14:32:50 UTC
Thanks for pointing out the typos guys I've edited the OP with corrections. Also we are aware of the price difference and are on top of the issue.

I'll have more to say here later but atm I'm managing one big thread and getting ready to start another one. Busy day.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2012-09-19 14:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Well, these look good.

I am so happy about the tracking bonus on the Thorax. Possibility to dual prop it and/or ASB it will be nice.

The one thing I am curious about is that seems to indicate a shift in Gallente hulls. I know people (including myself) already shield fit some (though they were clearly all meant to be armor fit). But this is looking to shift Gallente to be 'shield or armor' like Minmatar, instead of just pure armor intent before.

Honestly, I like it, but it concerns me that this might signal that active armor tanking isnt going to be getting a significant overhaul soon...

Anyway - looking forward to the changes. I fly the Thorax a lot in FW and I just can't wait. Now, what are they going to do with the Navy Ships?

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2012-09-19 14:41:18 UTC
And one other thought - with the HML nerf (that was needed) is it still necessary to make TDs work on missiles? It's going to make TDs the only EWAR that is fit, and it will be fit on every ship with a spare mid... It's actually going to have the effect of being an unintended nerf on turret users.

Perhaps bump the TD change off one more time and see how the HML changes work out first?

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#256 - 2012-09-19 14:42:23 UTC
Just realized rail thorax will actually be great.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#257 - 2012-09-19 14:43:45 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
...No no no.... HMLs, sitting at range applying four link-Proteus-boosted tracking disruptors. P
Actually that'll work with HAMs too. TDs on everything!

Sadly the TD part appears to be the way ... unless ... TDs are given the same treatment as ECM was back in the day, reduce the module stats and increase modifier on the relevant hulls.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#258 - 2012-09-19 14:45:02 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Just realized rail thorax will actually be great.


Go wash your mouth out with soap after saying something a vulgar as that. Big smile LMAO I hope one day rails will be good.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#259 - 2012-09-19 14:47:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the typos guys I've edited the OP with corrections. Also we are aware of the price difference and are on top of the issue.

I'll have more to say here later but atm I'm managing one big thread and getting ready to start another one. Busy day.


OMG what else will you nerf this week?

*Me cringes and hides in a corner with is comfy man-blanket*
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#260 - 2012-09-19 14:54:13 UTC
Rayner Vanguard wrote:


Well, I was wrong
In fact, whole Thorax defends is nerfed

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(-175)

Thorax current hull is 1875

I don't want Thorax to be another Diemost (Deimos if you don't know what I meant)

And, Thorax's price is also higher than other attack cruiser due to the mineral requirement


It looks like a nerf because it's currently a tier 2 hull with higher base stats than the other three here. And check Fozzie's post above about the mineral issue.

I'm burning to fly an Exequror+Thorax gang with Celestis support Twisted



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