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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Signal11th
#1121 - 2012-09-19 09:40:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Signal11th wrote:



And unfortunately this is why CCP knows it can 90% of the time push through any old crap. As as for the nerf yes nerfing two things is better than doing everything so nerf the Drake and the Tengu not everything else that uses HML.


That would leave HML still overpowering the other med long range weapons. The drake and tengu are also going to get a revisit when they get teircided.


But really is everthing supposed to be equal? There is always going to be something that is better than something else, it's a never ending circle when you try to make everythign the same.

The problem with the drake is its tank and projected damage and its cheap, which is great for new players. The tengu is the same but you pay a much higher price for it and you like everyother T3 lose SP if you lose it.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1122 - 2012-09-19 09:41:17 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Webvan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

We demanded ship balance and thats exactly what they are doing. All of these people you see exploding over the end of the world are all of them the same sort of people who whined about the nano nerf.
Hey weren't you that guy that was like 14yo or something? Yeah I remember you. But anyhoot, lad, I'm not that same sort, I object to your illogical and irrational generalizations. In fact I don't fly a drake, I don't even use missiles, but I see how wrong this is for all missile boats as it doesn't just effect one or two of them. This has nothing to do with "balance" and only makes things more complicated across the board, even broken, son.


Only if the nano nerf happened well over a decade ago.

Now I do fly missile ships and if you took even the slightest bit of time to look at the base stats of the long range med weapons then you would see that HML are around 25% better ranged and around 20% better at DPS than everything else before ship stats are even applied. But I guess looking at actual stats of these things is harder than trying to talk down to me



Not that I agree with his agrument but I do agree that his age shouldn;t really have any bearing on his argument.

Ode to the days when you had to be 18yo to play mmo's ...well not that anyone took the tos' seriously *shrugs*. But yes, doesn't apply here.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#1123 - 2012-09-19 09:43:14 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Signal11th wrote:



And unfortunately this is why CCP knows it can 90% of the time push through any old crap. As as for the nerf yes nerfing two things is better than doing everything so nerf the Drake and the Tengu not everything else that uses HML.


That would leave HML still overpowering the other med long range weapons. The drake and tengu are also going to get a revisit when they get teircided.


But really is everthing supposed to be equal? There is always going to be something that is better than something else, it's a never ending circle when you try to make everythign the same.

The problem with the drake is its tank and projected damage and its cheap, which is great for new players. The tengu is the same but you pay a much higher price for it and you like everyother T3 lose SP if you lose it.


Well, I think thats one reason that the training multiplier on the t3 subs is only 1. They are super fast to train even from 4 to 5. I've always felt that CCP made the decision to keep the mult at 1 primarily because of the possible loss of SP when piloting a strategic cruiser.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1124 - 2012-09-19 09:45:12 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Signal11th wrote:



Not that I agree with his agrument but I do agree that his age shouldn;t really have any bearing on his argument.

Ode to the days when you had to be 18yo to play mmo's ...well not that anyone took the tos' seriously *shrugs*. But yes, doesn't apply here.


When we have 7 year olds out witting adult miners and haulers age becomes a bit of a non-issue.Lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1125 - 2012-09-19 09:48:08 UTC
Signal11th wrote:


But really is everthing supposed to be equal? There is always going to be something that is better than something else, it's a never ending circle when you try to make everythign the same.

The problem with the drake is its tank and projected damage and its cheap, which is great for new players. The tengu is the same but you pay a much higher price for it and you like everyother T3 lose SP if you lose it.


There needs to be viable counters to everything. Missiles will still be unique in the same way arty is different from rails which are different from beams. Both the tengu and the drake will likely get further changes when their time for teircide comes.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#1126 - 2012-09-19 09:56:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The drake and tengu are also going to get a revisit when they get teircided.


To nerf them some more? Great...

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1127 - 2012-09-19 09:57:21 UTC
Signal11th wrote:


But really is everthing supposed to be equal? There is always going to be something that is better than something else, it's a never ending circle when you try to make everythign the same.

The problem with the drake is its tank and projected damage and its cheap, which is great for new players. The tengu is the same but you pay a much higher price for it and you like everyother T3 lose SP if you lose it.
And all good points. I mean, expanding on what you said about newbies, what is CCP going to do for explorers now? They have frigs, and they have the T3, nothing else. So for missile based explorers, throw them under the buss to appease the purely pvp side of the game? High price for a damaged exploration ship with no alternative.

I love pvp, but this is the conundrum of it in that it is a constant battle over the nerf bat, nerfing one ship or class after another to no end. I've seen it repeated over some odd 16 years playing mmo's. But yeah, there is never equality, it's not possible, I know it, it's illusive as a development resource trap.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1128 - 2012-09-19 09:59:59 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The drake and tengu are also going to get a revisit when they get teircided.


To nerf them some more? Great...


Blance it a great thing untill it happens to a ship you likeBlink
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1129 - 2012-09-19 10:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kmelx
[quote=baltec1 Both the tengu and the drake will likely get further changes when their time for teircide comes.[/quote]

Yes and we all know what those changes will be, people have been calling for nerfs to both ships for years because of lame nullsec blob warfare, the proposed missile changes are a massive indirect nerf to both ships and in all likelihood CCP will go even further in the future and screw both ships totally, probably by reducing the tanks of both Drakes and Tengus.

I don't disagree with the HML range nerf, but a 20% dps reduction is full ret@rd.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#1130 - 2012-09-19 10:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
NiGhTTraX wrote:

TDs will be the new and improved ECM. At least with ECM you're taking the risk of bringing the wrong jammer. If TD effects will apply to everything there's absolutely no reason to not bring one.


Totaly agree. Another thing is that ECM only works effective on a handfull of ships with special bonuses (Blackbird / Falcon / Scorpion / Widow) and that's it. And yes, i know that ECM can be extremly annoying, but at least you know instantly your primary and they go down like sh**.

TD's have a decent performance on every ship that has a Medslot to fit it. Way to overpowered. Better make Defenders useful or give us a "MGD" (Missile-Guidance-Disruption) Modul or something like that (same mechanic like TD, but Missiles only).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1131 - 2012-09-19 10:07:47 UTC
Kmelx wrote:


I don't disagree with the HML range nerf, but a 20% dps is reduction is full ret@rd.




Not if you look at what the stats are going to be. Even with the 20% dps reduction they will be slightly better at long range damage than everything else.
Signal11th
#1132 - 2012-09-19 10:07:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The drake and tengu are also going to get a revisit when they get teircided.


To nerf them some more? Great...


Blance it a great thing untill it happens to a ship you likeBlink



Yes and in that is the problem it isn't affecting one ship it's affecting lots.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1133 - 2012-09-19 10:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Kmelx wrote:

I don't disagree with the HML range nerf, but a 20% dps is reduction is full ret@rd.


Now you can use Defenders, Smartbombs and TD to intercept / disturb missiles. At least do not implement this with TD affecting missiles! Or can I use Smartbombs and Defenders against gunnery?

Edit: Off topic part removed, CCP Phantom
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1134 - 2012-09-19 10:10:03 UTC
Kmelx wrote:

Tracking disruptor change is an awful idea, it would become by far the most overpowered module in the game and a must fit module to any and all PVP ships, currently the module is already powerful, but it is balanced by the fact that it does not work against missiles, keep it as it is.

Very true !
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1135 - 2012-09-19 10:10:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kmelx wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Its the missiles causing the problems.


Which is nonsense, my two 100MNAB PVP Tengus (active and a passive tanked one) with lvl 5 sub skills and fours or fives in most missile skills, do about 400dps with faction launchers and BCUs, these are ships that I've spent billions of ISK on.

On there own Tengus are overpowered because of the tanks that you can achieve on them and the fact that the prop mod allows you to achieve high speeds without a corresponding sig radius increase, so you can run away from anyone you can't fight most of the time, not because of the dps output which is frankly underwhelming.

Lowering damage on these ships would take them to something like 320dps with faction fittings and decent skills, it makes one of the most popular ships in the game untenable in PVP and PVE.


You currently get 800+ DPS out of a ratting tengu and the standard tengufleet fit get over 500 DPS. What on earth are you doing to yours?

Yea, and a vindicator can get 2200dps. An enyo can get 500.
I wanna see the tengu fit with 800dps...let me take a guess its ham fit? And please, dont even bother posting a 6 launcher setup for a "standard fleet fit"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1136 - 2012-09-19 10:11:09 UTC
Signal11th wrote:



Yes and in that is the problem it isn't affecting one ship it's affecting lots.


Indeed it is. Many ships are now going to be viable.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#1137 - 2012-09-19 10:14:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
When we have 7 year olds out witting adult miners and haulers age becomes a bit of a non-issue.Lol
not really. I'd rather see CCP embrace 18+ in tos, but that's just imo. But I'd settle for CCP listening to reasoning and negating the nerf bat.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Ahernar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1138 - 2012-09-19 10:14:30 UTC
Damn Big smile .Liked the Tengu AND the Drake but i'm aware that were OP .The thing is the other HM boats were not OP and this weapon system nerf is hurting them more , without reason . Maybe an adjustement to the kin bonus of the drake and tengu would have sufficed (2% per level for ex instead of 5).

Anyway crunching hard HAM's in EFT :)
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#1139 - 2012-09-19 10:15:03 UTC
I approve the changes Lol

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#1140 - 2012-09-19 10:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
Rovinia wrote:
NiGhTTraX wrote:

TDs will be the new and improved ECM. At least with ECM you're taking the risk of bringing the wrong jammer. If TD effects will apply to everything there's absolutely no reason to not bring one.


Totaly agree. Another thing is that ECM only works effective on a handfull of ships with special bonuses (Griffin / Kitsune / Blackbird / Falcon / Scorpion / Widow) and that's it. And yes, i know that ECM can be extremly annoying, but at least you know instantly your primary and they go down like sh**.

TD's have a decent performance on every ship that has a Medslot to fit it. Way to overpowered. Better make Defenders useful or give us a "MGD" (Missile-Guidance-Disruption) Modul or something like that (same mecanic like TD, but Missiles only).


Argh... wanted to edit, hit the quote button... Shame on me! :(