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ASB Balance Write up.

Author
iramch
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-18 23:33:50 UTC
Hi all,
Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance

Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQY

TLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not.

jimmyjam
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
#2 - 2012-09-19 02:08:53 UTC
Nice work bro
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#3 - 2012-09-19 04:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
or in other words:

XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52
Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds.
That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB

XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second

now:

1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec

That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.

If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.

One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec.
To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec

That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.

4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)

That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.

Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.

So no, even one asb is imbalanced.
Aamrr
#4 - 2012-09-19 07:58:20 UTC
And yet you've managed to completely miss the point. Look at the capacitor consumption and get back to us...
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#5 - 2012-09-19 09:56:22 UTC
iramch wrote:
Hi all,
Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance

Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQY

TLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not.



You used a lot of words to point out that you don't really understand how stuff works. The trick to ASB is that you can use oversized ones while not running into cap problems without wasting another midslot on cap boosters.

Try running a medium shield booster on a harpy, see how long your cap lasts. Now fit 1 ASB, notice how it tanks a fckton more AND doesn't hurt your cap.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#6 - 2012-09-19 14:21:41 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
iramch wrote:
Hi all,
Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance

Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQY

TLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not.



You used a lot of words to point out that you don't really understand how stuff works. The trick to ASB is that you can use oversized ones while not running into cap problems without wasting another midslot on cap boosters.

Try running a medium shield booster on a harpy, see how long your cap lasts. Now fit 1 ASB, notice how it tanks a fckton more AND doesn't hurt your cap.



That is basically the problem is to oversize, in most cases, a shiled booster a cap booster is needed as well to keep from capping out in the "POV" period, then throw in even minor nueting and you are toast, with an ASB just meet fitting requirements and you are good to go.

The other thing is even if we take your analysis at face value, it would appear to me that the ASB is a little bit better than the SB (since many fights will be determined in the first minute), so the current module is meta 8 equililant minimum.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-09-19 14:55:23 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
or in other words:

XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52
Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds.
That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB

XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second

now:

1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec

That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.

If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.

One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec.
To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec

That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.

4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)

That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.

Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.

So no, even one asb is imbalanced.


You could read it that way. Or you could read it as 'active armor sucks and needs to be fixed.'

It is a small but significant difference.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#8 - 2012-09-19 15:20:43 UTC
Hrett wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
or in other words:

XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52
Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds.
That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB

XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second

now:

1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec

That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.

If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.

One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec.
To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec

That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.

4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)

That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.

Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.

So no, even one asb is imbalanced.


You could read it that way. Or you could read it as 'active armor sucks and needs to be fixed.'

It is a small but significant difference.


i think you might be right, armor tanking should require 13 times more powergrid and use 3 slots instead of 1 while repping the same amount. It's completely balanced!
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-09-19 18:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
nahjustwarpin wrote:
or in other words:

XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52
Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds.
That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB

XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second

now:

1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec

That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.

If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.

One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec.
To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec

That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.

4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)

That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.

Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.

So no, even one asb is imbalanced.


Now could you please enlighten some persons in this thread with real numbers for this:

Character with BC5 Med projectiles spec 4 fittings yadayada 5, command ships 4.
Ship used: Sleipnir
425mm autocanons
Double XL-ASB
Strong blue pill

Pos kissing boosting Loki

Would you please mind to educate some idiots? -I'm tired of trying.

Edit: oups just forgot but eventually you can also add crystal set, the high grade of course.

brb

Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Shadow Ultimatum
#10 - 2012-09-19 18:57:29 UTC
ASB is probably the one major item in game that made me stop and say "wow...that's kind of broken." My 2 cents.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#11 - 2012-09-19 19:37:30 UTC
The amusing thing about the ASB conceptionally in isolation are only a little out of balance, it is when you actually work with them they get better when you try top push hteir limits they crush all oposition (at the small group level, buffer still rules vs massive volley damage. )

For various reasons they have no or very little diminsihing returns when pushed and a few cases the advantage seems like 1+1 = 2.5 (duall xl asb). SB have cap issues if stacked, buffer explodes your sig, resist modes are stack nerfed, multiple asb just cover for each other.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#12 - 2012-09-19 20:54:53 UTC
ASBs are being nerfed, and the first wave of nerfs is already announced.

They are not fine.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#13 - 2012-09-19 22:17:48 UTC
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-09-20 02:25:10 UTC
Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-09-20 03:14:07 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.


Link please? I don't see it in F&I...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#16 - 2012-09-20 03:17:12 UTC
Ashera Yune wrote:
Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that.


Hmm so I guess I should just scrap all my active armour tanking frigs that I have so much fun in then?

errrr

NO!


Active armour is fine in small/solo scale fights but doesn't scale up very well.....

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Robert Lefcourt
BigPoppaMonkeys
E.B.O.L.A.
#17 - 2012-09-20 04:01:01 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Ashera Yune wrote:
Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that.


Hmm so I guess I should just scrap all my active armour tanking frigs that I have so much fun in then?

errrr

NO!


Active armour is fine in small/solo scale fights but doesn't scale up very well.....


It's fine for things that don't get hit too much, for instance speed tanks. But for brawlers which really get in each others face, there are few ships that can pull off a decent active tank and survive, for instance, an armor-cane.


regards,

rob
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2012-09-20 04:05:48 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.


Link please? I don't see it in F&I...


It's not in F&I. Here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-09-20 06:04:23 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.


Link please? I don't see it in F&I...


It's not in F&I. Here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread


Thank you.

Changes seem strange because they nerf single fits too...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#20 - 2012-09-20 06:33:51 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.


Link please? I don't see it in F&I...


It's not in F&I. Here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread


Thank you.

Changes seem strange because they nerf single fits too...


Their way of subtly saying they felt single fits were op as well I'm guessing. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

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