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The voting reform discussion

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Ki'ichi Monolit
PlebeiansHouse
#281 - 2012-09-19 03:19:58 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Ki'ichi Monolit wrote:
Lol, I do have the mental capacity to be a CSM and I know it, but in no way I am one of them. No idea with whom you are confusing me with, but I am in no way a CSM member. You may be saying it because the points I stated in my comment are true, and you know it.


3 sentences that say absolutely nothing...hmm...way too brief for Seleene or Hans. Not enough buttmad and bad quotes for Alekseyev. You're actually talking about the topic at hand so you're not Two Step, and you're actually posting on the CSM forums so that rules most of the rest out.

I give up, which one are you?



That was a wise decision, give up because I am none as you said. I am a simple player who has returned to the game less than a month ago after a break from EVE. I just like game politics and the complexity of them. Nothing else. However, now that there is representation, I believe everyone must be represented. History from CSM shows that most of the time, powerblocks have the power, just like if 0.0 was the ultimate place. It is, for you, and for anyone else that likes to play divide and conquer. But for a "care bear" "pirate" or a simple trader as my current form is. That is our ultimate place, remember EVE-o is what ever you make of it.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-09-19 03:23:11 UTC
Ki'ichi Monolit wrote:
I am a simple player who has returned to the game less than a month ago after a break from EVE. I just like game politics and the complexity of them. Nothing else.

You're being exceptionally adamant about this. It's suspicious behaviour.
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2012-09-19 06:47:11 UTC
If the goal of voting reform is to get better representation for a larger cross section of the Eve player base then wouldn't it make more sense to get more people to vote?! Why not make voting a requirement -can't log in until you've cast your vote for CSM...

If people don't vote, if they don't get involved in the election process, then do they deserve to be represented? Seems to me that you're trying to give a voice to people who don't want to speak, and at the same time suppress the groups that want to be involved. You're basically punishing large power blocks (aka Goons) for giving a ****...

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#284 - 2012-09-19 06:48:32 UTC
Quote:
I want to achieve a fairer representation on the CSM


What system could possibly be more fair than "the people with the most votes win the election"?

I really don't understand the issue here, are we really going to "re-invent" the election process so that it artificially represents some sort of "demographic" of players? If that's the case why even have an election at all? Why doesn't CCP simply pick who CSM members from various demographics and get it done with?

If your going to have an election, have an election. If your going to manipulate it via strange mathematical formulas to get some sort of desired result, than skip the bloody thing, and just create the result you want.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#285 - 2012-09-19 07:08:04 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
I want to achieve a fairer representation on the CSM


What system could possibly be more fair than "the people with the most votes win the election"?

I really don't understand the issue here, are we really going to "re-invent" the election process so that it artificially represents some sort of "demographic" of players? If that's the case why even have an election at all? Why doesn't CCP simply pick who CSM members from various demographics and get it done with?

If your going to have an election, have an election. If your going to manipulate it via strange mathematical formulas to get some sort of desired result, than skip the bloody thing, and just create the result you want.



Exactly. The only real problem with the current system is that it's producing results that some people don't like.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#286 - 2012-09-19 07:41:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Quote:
I want to achieve a fairer representation on the CSM


What system could possibly be more fair than "the people with the most votes win the election"?

I really don't understand the issue here, are we really going to "re-invent" the election process so that it artificially represents some sort of "demographic" of players? If that's the case why even have an election at all? Why doesn't CCP simply pick who CSM members from various demographics and get it done with?

If your going to have an election, have an election. If your going to manipulate it via strange mathematical formulas to get some sort of desired result, than skip the bloody thing, and just create the result you want.



Exactly. The only real problem with the current system is that it's producing results that some people don't like.

Actually the main problem with the current voting system is the number of accounts that vote. So they effectively have 2 ways to alter this.

They can either minimize the effect of the voting minorities or increase the number of people voting.

Personally I would like to see 60%+ of people voting but this really is unrealistic so that sort of boots it to a little from column A and a little from column B.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2012-09-19 08:09:53 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
If the goal of voting reform is to get better representation for a larger cross section of the Eve player base then wouldn't it make more sense to get more people to vote?! Why not make voting a requirement -can't log in until you've cast your vote for CSM...

If people don't vote, if they don't get involved in the election process, then do they deserve to be represented? Seems to me that you're trying to give a voice to people who don't want to speak, and at the same time suppress the groups that want to be involved. You're basically punishing large power blocks (aka Goons) for giving a ****...

Hey, this is actually a good post.

Lots of sense made here.

You'll get over looked dude. Sorry, the people of this thread are too busy dongewaving.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2012-09-19 08:16:39 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
If the goal of voting reform is to get better representation for a larger cross section of the Eve player base then wouldn't it make more sense to get more people to vote?! Why not make voting a requirement -can't log in until you've cast your vote for CSM...

If people don't vote, if they don't get involved in the election process, then do they deserve to be represented? Seems to me that you're trying to give a voice to people who don't want to speak, and at the same time suppress the groups that want to be involved. You're basically punishing large power blocks (aka Goons) for giving a ****...

Hey, this is actually a good post.

Lots of sense made here.

You'll get over looked dude. Sorry, the people of this thread are too busy dongewaving.

Except for the fact that the people who don't give a **** (which seems to be a large majority of the players out there) will be looking for a "bother me later, just let me log in and play" (aka remind me next login) button, a "I don't give a ****" (aka abstain) button, or just mash the first face which looks attractive of the list of candidates. This'll definitely improve voting.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kaori Mushuri
Fish and Ships Inc.
#289 - 2012-09-19 08:18:30 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
If the goal of voting reform is to get better representation for a larger cross section of the Eve player base then wouldn't it make more sense to get more people to vote?! Why not make voting a requirement -can't log in until you've cast your vote for CSM...

If people don't vote, if they don't get involved in the election process, then do they deserve to be represented? Seems to me that you're trying to give a voice to people who don't want to speak, and at the same time suppress the groups that want to be involved. You're basically punishing large power blocks (aka Goons) for giving a ****...


Just this.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2012-09-19 08:29:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually the main problem with the current voting system is the number of accounts that vote.

This is not a systemic failure.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2012-09-19 08:30:45 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
If the goal of voting reform is to get better representation for a larger cross section of the Eve player base then wouldn't it make more sense to get more people to vote?! Why not make voting a requirement -can't log in until you've cast your vote for CSM...

If people don't vote, if they don't get involved in the election process, then do they deserve to be represented? Seems to me that you're trying to give a voice to people who don't want to speak, and at the same time suppress the groups that want to be involved. You're basically punishing large power blocks (aka Goons) for giving a ****...


The thing with forced voting is that, with something like the CSM, you don't necessarily want voters just for the sake of having more votes, you want more participants. People who will vote because they feel they want to be represented, and who might actually pay attention to what's going on post-election, that kind of thing. Someone who votes because their client forced them to and then ignore the process are as useless as people who don't vote. It's just window-dressing that keeps any real solutions (if there are any) further from being found.

Definitely agree with the second part, though. It's an important philosophical thing that constantly is missed when this topic comes up - any voting system in the world is never aiming to maximize representation of people, it's to maximize representation of VOTERS. Much was made about "GOONS COULD HAVE PUT 3 CANDIDATES IN THE TOP 7!!!!", but we had 1/6th of the votes. With 14 seats, that's just great numbers, and no legitimate voting system in the world is going to change that - hence Trebor's "modifications" to standard STV that literally would have made our votes count for less than anyone else's. That's the road you head down when you decide to play with voting systems instead of trying to convince people why they should bother participating.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#292 - 2012-09-19 09:12:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Actually the main problem with the current voting system is the number of accounts that vote.

This is not a systemic failure.

The fact that those in the minorities have created the belief of the majority, that the CSM is not anything to do with them. Seems a fairly systemic failure.

The basis of the CSM is to be the representatives of the Whole player base. ATM it is controlled by those minorities, crackpot individuals and those other few who looked into the process.

So I once again come back to the points of player education, the 3 buttons Poetic described and player bought splash ads for the CSM.

While I would like everyone to vote on the CSM the fact that CCP does not wish to make this part of the game but just part of the meta game, means it will really only every be a minority council but there is always the ability to hope that the impossible will happen and more than just the Null sec people and those on the forums will actually vote.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-09-19 09:18:03 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
the 3 buttons Poetic described

The "bother me later, just let me play the game" button, the "I don't give a ****" button and the "I don't care, select a random hot candidate, just let me log in and play the game and stop nagging me about it" button?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#294 - 2012-09-19 09:20:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that those in the minorities have created the belief of the majority, that the CSM is not anything to do with them. Seems a fairly systemic failure.

The basis of the CSM is to be the representatives of the Whole player base. ATM it is controlled by those minorities, crackpot individuals and those other few who looked into the process.

So I once again come back to the points of player education, the 3 buttons Poetic described and player bought splash ads for the CSM.


You're agreeing with him and you don't even realize it. When he says it's not a systemic failure, he means exactly that - it's not a flaw in the voting system that causes people not to vote, it's a lack of education and/or desire, as you said. Whether we go FPTP or STV or whatever isn't going to increase or decrease voters by any noticeable amount, because it's not the actual problem. It's all about increasing awareness and figuring out whether or not people even want to participate, and why/why not, which again, you basically agree with.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-09-19 09:23:12 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
the 3 buttons Poetic described

The "bother me later, just let me play the game" button, the "I don't give a ****" button and the "I don't care, select a random hot candidate, just let me log in and play the game and stop nagging me about it" button?
The Abstain, Vote Now and Vote Later buttons, yes.

To be fair, I don't suggest it as the only solution. I also suggest there be other methods to educate voters, explain the importance of getting involved, taking 20 minutes to get to know the basic platforms of the candidates.

In-game voting would be one solution among many.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-09-19 09:27:19 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
the 3 buttons Poetic described

The "bother me later, just let me play the game" button, the "I don't give a ****" button and the "I don't care, select a random hot candidate, just let me log in and play the game and stop nagging me about it" button?
The Abstain, Vote Now and Vote Later buttons, yes.

How many will choose abstain just to get away from the nagging? How many will end up going "oh ****, abstain didn't do what I thought it did and now I can't vote"? How many will vote and choose some random character just because they look hot just to get it over with?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#297 - 2012-09-19 09:31:21 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The fact that those in the minorities have created the belief of the majority, that the CSM is not anything to do with them. Seems a fairly systemic failure.

The basis of the CSM is to be the representatives of the Whole player base. ATM it is controlled by those minorities, crackpot individuals and those other few who looked into the process.

So I once again come back to the points of player education, the 3 buttons Poetic described and player bought splash ads for the CSM.


You're agreeing with him and you don't even realize it. When he says it's not a systemic failure, he means exactly that - it's not a flaw in the voting system that causes people not to vote, it's a lack of education and/or desire, as you said. Whether we go FPTP or STV or whatever isn't going to increase or decrease voters by any noticeable amount, because it's not the actual problem. It's all about increasing awareness and figuring out whether or not people even want to participate, and why/why not, which again, you basically agree with.

While I would normally berate you and point to the fact that Goonswarm members are all over this forum as a sign that Goonswarm can see and have used the power the CSM provides to push your own agenda, I wont Lol

Yeah I actually want to see a lot more people voting, while I don't mind the systems proposed or the current system, the failure in them is failure to inform. In the other thread of me and Lord Zim arguing about education, I suggested Lore for the CSM, this is apparently not going to happen so the voting levels no matter the level of education will never reach 50% and 40% would be pushing it.

So the other side of the coin is would it be a better representation for the player base if we just disbanded the CSM altogether. With no CSM there is no meta gaming between the minorities of this game and so CCP would actually have to check in more often with the forums as a whole rather than selected representatives. It is more work for CCP to have a happy player base but it is more representative than the CSM has ever been or will probably ever be.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#298 - 2012-09-19 09:32:32 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
the 3 buttons Poetic described

The "bother me later, just let me play the game" button, the "I don't give a ****" button and the "I don't care, select a random hot candidate, just let me log in and play the game and stop nagging me about it" button?
The Abstain, Vote Now and Vote Later buttons, yes.

How many will choose abstain just to get away from the nagging? How many will end up going "oh ****, abstain didn't do what I thought it did and now I can't vote"? How many will vote and choose some random character just because they look hot just to get it over with?

If they use abstain well at least we know how many people honestly do not care, rather than guessing like we are now.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2012-09-19 09:33:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
the 3 buttons Poetic described

The "bother me later, just let me play the game" button, the "I don't give a ****" button and the "I don't care, select a random hot candidate, just let me log in and play the game and stop nagging me about it" button?
The Abstain, Vote Now and Vote Later buttons, yes.

How many will choose abstain just to get away from the nagging? How many will end up going "oh ****, abstain didn't do what I thought it did and now I can't vote"? How many will vote and choose some random character just because they look hot just to get it over with?
Education. You conveniently didn't quote me on that.

Even with education, there'll still be people who **** up or are just lazy. But these are the same people who fit lasers and projectiles to the same ship. There's little to be done to help them. ;)
Frying Doom
#300 - 2012-09-19 09:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
In a nutshell.

The CSM is the player representatives for the whole game.

So ask yourselves this would any of the current CSM members be there if the Whole game voted?

So for the CSM to be more than a minority joke we need more player involvement, so more education the 3 buttons of Poetic's and lore for the CSM. They should really be part of the game everyone can interact with not just for forum snobs and minority groups. Yes I am aware that CCP Xhagen has already poo-pooed this but it would not be that hard to incorporate it into the lore and actually make it matter.

And once again on the other side of the coin, if it is just meant as a minority PR stunt it should just be take out to the back shed and put out of it's misery.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!