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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#821 - 2012-09-19 00:22:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

False. Missiles behave that way. Turrets don't unless that fast moving target is at close range and moving transversal to the attacker.


Wrong again. Go use rails.

Quote:
baltec1 wrote:
He ignoresthe fact that the other guns need to use their longest range ammo to match the range of missiles.

Not really.

Yes really. To get the same range as HML you need the longest range ammo. So wrong again.

baltec1 wrote:
He ignores the fact that all ships are going to be changed.

Not really.


Stike three. CCP are doing every single ship.[/quote]
As for the first, I get your point.

As for the others, I mean "not really" as in "he's not really ignoring that."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#822 - 2012-09-19 00:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Grath Telkin wrote:
I'll wait right here while Yaay cooks up a few more fits that nobody uses and nobody will for multiple various easily seen reasons.

Ahac HAM Sac's.



They were never HAM sacs you ****. At least get the concept right before you bash it. An god forbid this game has someone try new things out.

Also, we got a **** ton of kills for being outnumbered 3 to 1 and screwed over by several groups in that fight who we were "in discussions with." So maybe you should get all the facts out there bro.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#823 - 2012-09-19 00:25:48 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
According to eve-kill.net; the heavy missile launcher is used almost 35% of the time. Followed by 425mm auto cannons being used 8%.

Some of you go on and on about how it is balanced with the other medium weapons, but why is it used so much more than any other medium weapon platform in the game?


Because drakes scale very well into large nullsec blobs. They are easy to orbit anchor f1 with and receive reps better than any other bc besides the lolprophecy.
Rex Augustus
Perkone
Caldari State
#824 - 2012-09-19 00:27:37 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?


Yes. And if you haven't, it's because you aren't flying with the right people, because this sure as **** happens.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#825 - 2012-09-19 00:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Marlona Sky wrote:
According to eve-kill.net; the heavy missile launcher is used almost 35% of the time. Followed by 425mm auto cannons being used 8%.

Some of you go on and on about how it is balanced with the other medium weapons, but why is it used so much more than any other medium weapon platform in the game?

where would HMLs be without 100k ehp drakes and 100mn tengus? also consider that there are several different medium turret calibers while there are only 3 different medium launchers.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#826 - 2012-09-19 00:31:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.




Ahemm... CCP. Why can't you actually improve one area of your game without screwing up another? Seems possible to me... Right now it looks like every new "improvement' is actually a Dev team meddling with next year's battle strategies of the game.

Devs breaking the mechanics of one fleet strategy by changing one ship, while adjusting another ship is mere meddling. EVE will be balanced when there are multiple "favorites" fleet doctrines.

All the turret based ships can shout "yay, down with the Drake" but that merely gives turret pilots the upper-hand at the expense of missile pilots. Fact is your missile nerfs are unnecessary at best. And stinks of gamer politics at worst.

Regards,
Isaiah Harms
Celes Jaynara
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#827 - 2012-09-19 00:32:07 UTC
Two step wrote:
I think these sound good, but of course people will need to play with them on the test server.

Its a good thing I hate the CSM and never thought they were out for the common good of the game and its player base and not just its own ends.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#828 - 2012-09-19 00:35:44 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
I'll wait right here while Yaay cooks up a few more fits that nobody uses and nobody will for multiple various easily seen reasons.

Ahac HAM Sac's.



They were never HAM sacs you ****. At least get the concept right before you bash it. An god forbid this game has someone try new things out.

Also, we got a **** ton of kills for being outnumbered 3 to 1 and screwed over by several groups in that fight who we were "in discussions with." So maybe you should get all the facts out there bro.


Yea, i wonder why you put heavy missiles on them, maybe because the heavies were easier to fit than any other long range weapon system and comes without any real draw backs other than delayed DPS.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#829 - 2012-09-19 00:36:34 UTC
Also please sit and defend your heavy missile after burning sacs more because it wasn't completely discounted as anything anybody would ever want to use long ago.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
BinaryData
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2012-09-19 00:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: BinaryData
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.

I'd like to start off by reminding people that everything in these F&I threads is open to changes, however there are some significant balance issues being dealt with here that will need to be solved in one way or another. There are also some details that remain to be ironed out but we wanted to get these ideas out to you all as early as possible.

I'll start off with the orphan announcement. In the Attack Cruiser thread we also announced changes to medium gun fittings. We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time but I wanted that thread to stay dedicated to the specific cruiser balance instead of getting derailed so we're moving that here.
Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.

The meat of this thread however is about missiles. There's a number of missile changes we have planned for the Winter, including the already announced buff to light missiles, a nerf to heavy missile range and damage to put them in line with other long range cruiser weapons, a rework of all T2 missiles so they become usable, and the expansion of both tracking enhancers and tracking disruptors into the realm of missiles.

All Missiles
Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Light Missiles
-Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40
-Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles
-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Improve bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time



Congrats Fozzie. You've just made Caldari, just as useless as Gallente is. Can I get my 5mill SP+ in Missile Operation back? Cause this is stupid as f***.

You do realize that missiles are DIFFERENT than turret based weapons.

I'm glad I'm quitting this sh*t tastic game. You guys swing the nerf hammer, and break it into a billion pieces, then takes a year or LONGER to fix it. My god, when will you imbeciles LEARN.


Furthermore, why don't you stop this stupid "ship rebalancing" and balance large scale PvP? Since thats what EVE has evolved into, or are you just going to continue to let blob warfare ruin the game?


Edit: Further more, while you're at it, why don't you make the Amarr crystals have a reload timer, the curse shouldn't have a 100% chance to nuet someone for x amount, it should be a base amount from x amount to y amount. Pilgrims will need a nerf as well, cause you just made them the new OP Falcon.
lil Pheonix
Red XIII Indy Flight School
Sigma Grindset
#831 - 2012-09-19 00:38:13 UTC
I must admitt. Taking the 425mm's off the Hurricane is kind of lame, CCP you're doiing it wrong XXXXXXX
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#832 - 2012-09-19 00:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Grath Telkin wrote:
I'll wait right here while Yaay cooks up a few more fits that nobody uses and nobody will for multiple various easily seen reasons.

Ahac HAM Sac's.



i just had to try this out


[Sacrilege, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Nova Javelin Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I




might not be so bad with the updated TC...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#833 - 2012-09-19 00:41:06 UTC
Yaay has corrected me, they were HML AB Sacs....yea, I said it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#834 - 2012-09-19 00:41:42 UTC
Proposition:

Do not nerf Drake DPS (it already sucks).
Do not nerf Hurricane powergrid.

If you destroy the battlecruisers to fix cruiser aren't you just making more work (and grief) for everyone down the road?

Oh... and whoever reading this:

IF YOU SUCK SO MUCH THAT YOU ARE STILL AFRAID OF DRAKES... go play Wow.
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#835 - 2012-09-19 00:42:05 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
I'll wait right here while Yaay cooks up a few more fits that nobody uses and nobody will for multiple various easily seen reasons.

Ahac HAM Sac's.



They were never HAM sacs you ****. At least get the concept right before you bash it. An god forbid this game has someone try new things out.

Also, we got a **** ton of kills for being outnumbered 3 to 1 and screwed over by several groups in that fight who we were "in discussions with." So maybe you should get all the facts out there bro.


No one in PL likes you

your personality is terrible

enjoy -a-

lol
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#836 - 2012-09-19 00:42:32 UTC
How will this effect missioning and running plexes? The 20% nerf to damage can mean the difference between being able to break the tank on a commander or not. (I know because I've experienced it in a DED 6/10 in a tengu)

Any thought went into the rest of the effects other than just the Drake mass fleets in null?
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#837 - 2012-09-19 00:42:51 UTC
Ana Fox wrote:
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
So hey look, I hated drakefleet and i dont mind the pvp ramifications, but what am I supposed to make money with in nullsec as a low-sp pilot? I can salvage off of kinder vets sometimes, but that's a finite and pretty limited source of isk. I'm just now able to do forsaken hubs on my own, and that's my only steady source of isk. With these nerfs on the board it really sounds like you're dicking low-sp pilots that live in nullsec out of one of their major sources of income, which wasn't that major to begin with.

I was also slowly training for a tengu to rat and now i'm second guessing that. Did you guys even think this nerf through? Do you actually want people to never use the drake or heavy-missile based ships ever again?

It seems like you could have reduced the viability of heavy missiles in pvp without completely screwing low-sp income sources.

Edit: And if anyone tells me that I should mine I will take a veldspar asteroid and cram it waaayyy up your ass.


This is my main concern.New players will be those who will have hard time.When I say new I think those that are up to 6-7 months old.It is not problem to get other ships more used it is that they / we dont have what other ships to use to be if nothing close to effective as those two are mostly reason for this nerf it seems.

I would not have problem to use T2 cruiser on my Caldari pilot ,but that T2 suck so bad .

I will say same as I did in my previous post ,HML was op in some things like range and same dps application no matter of target distance ,but was that dmg so much op to be 20% less now with this proposed changes?

Again I would not have problem if I am player that is two years old and you have gunnery and cross trained ship options,but sadly I dont have.For us it will be even more hard to get involved in some cool stuff older players do just cause some went Caldari way.

Lucky for me I have one more pilot with gunnery :/.


That's the least of all concerns you could have. When I was that young my corp moved to Angel space. There was no Drake in the game, and I was still getting my core capacitor, drone and gunnery up to give my basic Amarr skills. I ended up flying an Armageddon with medium size pulse lasers and five heavy drones, as the Prophecy had too low damage output, there was no rigs in the game, t2 modules was too expensive to fit, and I had no large guns yet (or could sustain them, capwise). I still managed. And I often did rat in pair with some of the corpmates, depending on who was on.

What is more interesting is whether CCP realises they are doing a blanket generalised nerf over a whole weapontype, when what is considered the 'powerful' aspect is two single ships (and for various reasons, damage is not a mutual theme). I.e. our devs have no clue what they are doing.

As for the young-guys ratting: in todays environment where we have rigs, t2 modules are cheap, and hell you could even easily afterburn tank and stack damage mod on a regular t1 cruiser and still get more damage out of it than I did back then.. you'll be fine. There's belt rattings, you don't have to run anomalies. If you're not prepared, you're not prepared, simply put. If you make less isk, then fly cheaper ships in fleets. For my first 1year+ I purely flew t1 frigates, even tho at the end I had bs 5. When you make more isk, then you can spend more isk.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#838 - 2012-09-19 00:44:26 UTC
lil Pheonix wrote:
I must admitt. Taking the 425mm's off the Hurricane is kind of lame, CCP you're doiing it wrong XXXXXXX

Nothing is keeping you from using modules, rigs and implants to make those 425mm's fit.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#839 - 2012-09-19 00:44:27 UTC
Um, Fozzie... what about the Cerberus, Caracal, Navy Caracal, and Nighthawk?

I would rather see the Drake lose a launcher than to see the Caracal et al. get hurt this badly. The Cerberus is now out classed by the Sacrilege. The Nighthawk needed a buff, not a nerf. The Caracal heavy missile damage was always just decent, never a problem. Since when was the Navy Caracal ever a problem? (Yes, I understand that these ships we will need to be balanced, but the HM change that addresses the Drake hurts ships that needed a buff.)

I don’t even know where to post this under since two or three threads are involved. The Caracal changes are meh at best. One launcher does not equal 3 medium drones. The Bellicose now just out classes it. The EW cruiser that is supposed to be on the slower side is faster than an Attack cruiser that is supposed to be on the faster side. Two low slots mean trying to gain back damage the Caracal was robbed of.

The speed and fittings can help with HAMs (and maybe a DCU) so that is good, but you are way better off in a faster, higher DPS, TP bonus Bellicose. (And you wanted to give that thing 5 medium drones? o.O; I knew the Bellicose changes would make it out class the Caracal. I honestly feel let down.) The LM buff does help it too, but only in a limited way. I just can’t get excited about this. The typical HM Caracal gains some speed, loses some damage, and gains some EHP. Compared to the boosts to the other ships, this isn’t much. It feels more like a nerf, but I’ll bet most plays just see how this affects Drake and are happy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#840 - 2012-09-19 00:44:36 UTC
BinaryData wrote:



Congrats Fozzie. You've just made Caldari, just as useless as Gallente is. Can I get my 5mill SP+ in Missile Operation back? Cause this is stupid as f***.

You do realize that missiles are DIFFERENT than turret based weapons.

I'm glad I'm quitting this sh*t tastic game. You guys swing the nerf hammer, and break it into a billion pieces, then takes a year or LONGER to fix it. My god, when will you imbeciles LEARN.


Furthermore, why don't you stop this stupid "ship rebalancing" and balance large scale PvP? Since thats what EVE has evolved into, or are you just going to continue to let blob warfare ruin the game?


Missiles will still be different just not to the point of outclassing everything else. As a Gallente pilot I am very much looking forwards to beating up your drakes with railguns.