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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lord Ryan
True Xero
#601 - 2012-09-18 21:12:00 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Wolfstorm wrote:
The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok.


This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare.

Not just the drake the cane too. I think CCP may just pulled stealth solo/small gang nerf.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#602 - 2012-09-18 21:12:22 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Wolfstorm wrote:
The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok.


This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare.


So what you're telling me is that you won't be using the equivalent to Railguns and Beam Lasers in small gang PVP? Shocking that someone might want to use a "close range" weapons system (I use the term a little loosely).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#603 - 2012-09-18 21:12:29 UTC
Lord MuffloN wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Making TD's work against missiles is a major mistake too btw. I like the idea of having a TD-ish mechanic work against missiles, that is not a bad thing per se. But when you make missiles affected by TD then you have a nobrainer to fit TD on every ship that has midslots to spare.

Now picture this; which race has the most mids to spare? Gallente. They also happen to be short range (blaster and drones). when TD will affect all weapontypes, Gallente will just force people to go up close or run. It's a bit too early to paint doomsday scenarios, but this could very well rupture the whole game in the nationality balance. I don't mind flying drone boats myself, my Gallente skills are top notch, but it's worrying overall if the devs just don't even think about this on such an early state of development process, to be honest. Make a new module, TD-ish, that counters missiles, and you got my love, that's a whole different story.



You and I seem to have very, very different versions of Gallente ships, sure, it'll be a boon to the drone boats (and you can't seriously say they don't deserve it), but the blaster hulls all already have required mids, scram, web, injector and mwd, now tell me, how many blaster hulls have more than 4 mids? Not many, Myrmidon, Dominix and the Hyperion I believe, and out of them the only pure blaster boat is the hyperion, which in turn have a lot of other issues, that said, my Dominix just became a ultra violent psycopathic murderer instead of a violent psycopathic murderer, if I choose to skip the ECCM or other, oh god, I'll have to make choices, no more cookie cutter builds, my god, it's almost interesting again!


Tell that to the Retribution, or any Caldari hull, or most other Amarrians..
Yah, you're right, Gallente doesn't have that many mids. They just happen to have more than anyone else. P

Obviously I'm talking non-blob combat, TD in a flood of people will be damn hard to spread enough, and who fields blasters in blobs anyway? We're talking small scale PvP here, and in those situations, I'd much rather get the new TD over ECCM, and in many cases I'd take it over a Web as well. You'd lose some targets that'd run away, but you'd force more targets in scramble range, and wouldn't be kited nearly as much as is today. I think overall this is a huge Gallente boost. Blobs wouldn't even notice tho.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Signal11th
#604 - 2012-09-18 21:13:39 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Although everybody is talking about cruisers and battlecruisers, I want to divert attention to another point that seems to be overlooked.

What will these changes mean on battleship level. Will torpedoes have longer range with TC/TE's now. Are we going to get torpedo ships that can actually hit smaller stuff by using TE/TC's. Did you guys consider these parameters when thinking about TE/TC for missiles?

Everybody is talking about the 20% damage nerf which is just one part of the nerf hammer.

"-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

T2 Fury missiles were actually very efficient missiles for their job and they were adding a lot of DPS. Many tengu/drake pilots were using them as default as they are cheaper than their faction counterparts. With the new changes I doubt they can be used against anything cruiser sized anymore.

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Go Fozzie!!!!






Will it? Because I have two PVP accounts that rely on PLEX'ing from my now slighly crapper Caldari ship, If it starts taking me too long to earn the cash then the two accounts go defunct.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#605 - 2012-09-18 21:13:40 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Wolfstorm wrote:
The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok.


This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare.

Not just the drake the cane too. I think CCP may just pulled stealth solo/small gang nerf.


Small gang PVP is fine. Arguably, Caldari ships by and large just got a massive buff with the TE changes. Yeah the HML Draek just ate a nerf, but with the bonuses to HAMs.... !

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Arec Bardwin
#606 - 2012-09-18 21:16:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time
Uber boost to torpedoes and HAM! + Pilgrim Twisted
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#607 - 2012-09-18 21:19:21 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Although everybody is talking about cruisers and battlecruisers, I want to divert attention to another point that seems to be overlooked.

What will these changes mean on battleship level. Will torpedoes have longer range with TC/TE's now. Are we going to get torpedo ships that can actually hit smaller stuff by using TE/TC's. Did you guys consider these parameters when thinking about TE/TC for missiles?

Everybody is talking about the 20% damage nerf which is just one part of the nerf hammer.

"-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

T2 Fury missiles were actually very efficient missiles for their job and they were adding a lot of DPS. Many tengu/drake pilots were using them as default as they are cheaper than their faction counterparts. With the new changes I doubt they can be used against anything cruiser sized anymore.

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Go Fozzie!!!!






Will it? Because I have two PVP accounts that rely on PLEX'ing from my now slighly crapper Caldari ship, If it starts taking me too long to earn the cash then the two accounts go defunct.


And this is supposed to be our problem why? All you are really proving here is that those caldari ships you're flying are stronger than all the other ships you could be flying to earn your keep.
Praetor Abre-Kai
Pickling Rifles
#608 - 2012-09-18 21:19:57 UTC
Haargoth Civire wrote:
Fatyn wrote:
Fozzie I think what you and the team are doing is pretty breathtaking. It's been so good to see CCP rumble into gear on ship balancing over the last year or so. The tentative, glacial changes of the past have been replaced by a much bolder approach - the core game of EVE pewpew always deserved so much more than one dev in a broom cupboard. There will always be some whiny fucks whose favourite ship / tactic / fitting is now superceded, but if the objective of making EVE PvP broader, deeper and more balanced is achieved most people won't care.

I hope you guys feel the power in your fingertips because you are supercharging our awesome game with every new balance patch.


But fatyn all the blobs in null sec will now have to get skills for decent ships and they will have to spend isk on better hulls.. what are they gonna doooooooo..


2/10
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#609 - 2012-09-18 21:22:42 UTC
The ratio of good posts to dumb posts on this forum is usually pretty horrible, but I didn't think it could get this awful before reading this entire thread.

No sig.
Signal11th
#610 - 2012-09-18 21:22:56 UTC
Laura Dexx wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Although everybody is talking about cruisers and battlecruisers, I want to divert attention to another point that seems to be overlooked.

What will these changes mean on battleship level. Will torpedoes have longer range with TC/TE's now. Are we going to get torpedo ships that can actually hit smaller stuff by using TE/TC's. Did you guys consider these parameters when thinking about TE/TC for missiles?

Everybody is talking about the 20% damage nerf which is just one part of the nerf hammer.

"-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

T2 Fury missiles were actually very efficient missiles for their job and they were adding a lot of DPS. Many tengu/drake pilots were using them as default as they are cheaper than their faction counterparts. With the new changes I doubt they can be used against anything cruiser sized anymore.

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Go Fozzie!!!!






Will it? Because I have two PVP accounts that rely on PLEX'ing from my now slighly crapper Caldari ship, If it starts taking me too long to earn the cash then the two accounts go defunct.


And this is supposed to be our problem why? All you are really proving here is that those caldari ships you're flying are stronger than all the other ships you could be flying to earn your keep.


Err no a vindicator or a carrier and probably a few more earns more than my tengu does. Think before you speak.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#611 - 2012-09-18 21:25:35 UTC
Deerin wrote:

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Oddly enough, this was about the same thinking of SOE/LA regarding SWG:NGE. Funny how things worked out, eh?

—Ω—
Siiee
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#612 - 2012-09-18 21:26:00 UTC
I can't say that I'm really opposed to the idea of having damage application/EWAR mods for missiles, but I really dislike the re-use of current TD ewar for it. It really does bring a rock-paper-scissors arrangement into rock-paper in the sense that TD becomes a direct "counter all weapons" which is kindof blah.

The pilgrim is my favorite ship ever, and this will be a massive buff for it, but I kind of liked having to take into account the weapons. Trying to counter a well-fit well-tanked drake made for an interesting decision.

Introduce new missile support/anti-missile systems. Let it be something that will be a terrible blight on a homogenous fleet doctrine, but that a mixed fleet won't be as bothered by.
Parry Rhodan
SILVER.WINGS
#613 - 2012-09-18 21:26:08 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
I love seeing all these "DEATH TO DRAKE AND TENGU" posts without thinking about other ships that might've had to use HM's...
Nighthawk, Caracal, Cerberus, etc.
The Caracal's getting a slight buff, but the DPS with HM's is going to be terrible.
Ed: and don't even get me started on the other two...

I can understand those Drake and Tengu haters too, probably because they don’t fly them as I don’t fly (skilled) other ships than Caldari.
Cravenel wrote:
how is this an expansion... this is just another irrelevant, arbitrary change to game mechanics.
Fleets will switch to yet another optimum ship, people who can fly any ship will just buy another one and the only people who will see the difference in their game experience will be new player who were unaware that choosing Caldari as your start race is a terrible mistake.

This is not just an issue for new players. After 2 ½ years of Eve playing I am not one of those, who can just switch to “gun bonus” ships and having equal advantages. It would take again ages for me to skill turrets and/or Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar ships to get to the same level as I am now with Caldari /Missile ships.
Rexorol wrote:
A small request from CCP: Can you let us know which ships you approve of and feel are nicely balanced so I can just fly those?
I feel like I wasted 5 months of training with specializing in Caldari cruisers and HML's now. Yeah, I can take advantage of what I learned before the nerf, but if the hammer is going to come down this hard on both their damage and their range, there really isn't any point to flying Caldari missile cruisers/battlecruisers after this winter expansion.
Time to start speculating on what will be considered overpowered next, and get my skill training started before it happens.

Exactly and which Caldari Ships are out there with gun bonuses? -> Not many worth to accept long skilling times (and like me, to start skilling from zero)!
It’s said that in Eve you can skill any race to take advantage of their ships/bonuses, but regarding the coming changes I would not have favoured Caldari two-and-a-half-years ago. Sad
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#614 - 2012-09-18 21:26:17 UTC
Watch me fit all my ships with tracking disruptors.

Watch everyone fit tracking disruptors on their ship.


Watch everyone whine that they can't kill each other or its taking forever.


CCP nerfs TD to oblivion and makes its useless for 3 years.

CCP balancing process sucks it takes forever just to change a few digits.


You still haven't fix core philosophy problems with Gallente ships being slow armor tank and having the shortest range guns.

Railguns are the biggest POS of eve.
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#615 - 2012-09-18 21:26:50 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Laura Dexx wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Although everybody is talking about cruisers and battlecruisers, I want to divert attention to another point that seems to be overlooked.

What will these changes mean on battleship level. Will torpedoes have longer range with TC/TE's now. Are we going to get torpedo ships that can actually hit smaller stuff by using TE/TC's. Did you guys consider these parameters when thinking about TE/TC for missiles?

Everybody is talking about the 20% damage nerf which is just one part of the nerf hammer.

"-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

T2 Fury missiles were actually very efficient missiles for their job and they were adding a lot of DPS. Many tengu/drake pilots were using them as default as they are cheaper than their faction counterparts. With the new changes I doubt they can be used against anything cruiser sized anymore.

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Go Fozzie!!!!






Will it? Because I have two PVP accounts that rely on PLEX'ing from my now slighly crapper Caldari ship, If it starts taking me too long to earn the cash then the two accounts go defunct.


And this is supposed to be our problem why? All you are really proving here is that those caldari ships you're flying are stronger than all the other ships you could be flying to earn your keep.


Err no a vindicator or a carrier and probably a few more earns more than my tengu does. Think before you speak.


What is your point, friend? I still don't understand what you're trying to prove here. If a vindicator earns you more, why don't you use that instead?
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#616 - 2012-09-18 21:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Watch me fit all my ships with tracking disruptors.

Watch everyone fit tracking disruptors on their ship.


Watch everyone whine that they can't kill each other or its taking forever.


CCP nerfs TD to oblivion and makes its useless for 3 years.

CCP balancing process sucks it takes forever just to change a few digits.


You still haven't fix core philosophy problems with Gallente ships being slow armor tank and having the shortest range guns.

Railguns are the biggest POS of eve.



Soon "Because of Falcon" will be replaced by "Because of Pilgrim."
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#617 - 2012-09-18 21:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
i do not have anything to say on the hurricane but the proposed HML changes can only be called ham-handed (no pun intended). CCP please consider the following points:
1. the only two ships that are successful with heavy missiles are drake and tengu. the tengu gets a total 100% bonus to (kinetic) heavy missile damage. the drake has a superb slot layout and a great defensive bonus, making it a battleship-like brick. if you want to nerf these two ships, you should be nerfing the ships, not the weapon system.
2. making the tracking paradigm apply to missiles is stupid. not only does it make no sense, especially with unguided missiles, it also takes away game depth. after the change, the only real difference between heavy missiles and medium artillery would be that missile damage is delayed and has somewhat smaller alpha (but slightly more range).
3. the most dramatic failure would be to make tracking disruptors affect missiles. this would make them THE allround one-size-fits-all ewar. i can already see fleets of invincible merlins swarming any other fleet like fire ants.

now that that is out of my system, here is what i would suggest to bring missiles in line:
1. make the tengu's Accelerated Ejection Bay missile velocity bonus apply only to HAMs. (while you're at it, give the same bonus to the legion's Assault Optimization)
2. reduce HML flight time by 10-15%
3. remove one launcher hardpoint from the drake or make CPU tighter so that people have to decide between a full Rack of T2 launchers and 100k EHP.
4. increase the velocity of torps. their reach is currently the same as HAMs which is ludicrous.
5. do NOT make missiles affected by tracking. not only will this make the game more homogenous and boring, it will overbuff tracking disruptors and also throw PVE totally out of whack.

edit: the light missile changes seem allright.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#618 - 2012-09-18 21:30:14 UTC
Omega Sunset wrote:
Deerin wrote:

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Oddly enough, this was about the same thinking of SOE/LA regarding SWG:NGE. Funny how things worked out, eh?


The NGE was aimed at making things easier for everyone, especially new players. It wasn't because it was a major overhaul that it failed, but how they handled it and how they simplified the game with it, along with some of the more advanced content. That you're trying to liken this balancing patch to the likes of the NGE patch really tells me a lot about your lack of intelligence.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#619 - 2012-09-18 21:30:33 UTC
I crunched some pyfa numbers with the current state of affairs and one thing kind of stuck out at me: HAMs are clearly going to be the go-to, but are the tracking enhancers and tracking computers going to be enough? I can eke 625 DPS out of a Drake using Scourge Rage, lows full of ballistic control systems, weapon rigs, and HAMs, but that's all on paper. Other battlecruisers can shame that if they so choose. Are HAMs going to be looked at as part of this maneuver?
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#620 - 2012-09-18 21:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Wolfstorm wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:


Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing. Nice work on making the game even more uniform and less interesting.



Armor cane FTW ... no one but pirates seem to fly one anymore tho.

But again our CCP design team is crap and they don't look at all the uses a ship gets and instead only go hey, it can be used in one way we think we might not like so we gotta break it so it can't be used like that, but damn the side effects of other things it's no longer good for.

We don't want WOW in space, in fact we want WOW in space players to quit and go find a game suited to them.


Pretty much this. They balance based on how the ship is used by a bunch of F1 monkeys who couldn't kill a damn thing on their own, and completely ignore how the ships behave when you don't have 250 of them on the field. They need to consider both scenarios, not just one, when balancing.

Also, if they actually wanted to increase arty use on the attack cruisers, why not give them a role bonus to PG reduction rather than modifying the base grid amount on the medium long range guns, thus requiring a PG nerf to the cane?

As a side note, I do like the TD/TE/TC/TL changes for missiles, it makes this option of ecm more viable. Just be careful with how powerful these are.