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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#581 - 2012-09-18 20:54:31 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing.


Sure you can. You just won't be able to fit 2 1600mm plates, 2x Medium Neuts and 425mm ACs. You'll have to work for your fitting. Try using 1 plate. Or downgrade your neuts. Or downgrade your ACs. Trust me, it works.


You cant fit that. Dual plate requires 180s.;
Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#582 - 2012-09-18 20:56:42 UTC
Reticle wrote:
edit: also, if defender missiles worked properly, complaints about HMs would probably stop

I have them trained a little, early on, until I found that they were worthless. This would make actual sense. So I punch through with four out of five missiles a volley, there 's the 20% reduction. I think missile boat drivers can live with that and it's not a nerf. Though I can imagine the tears of players needing to load defenders on hardpoint. Best option is still bringing non-missile boats up to standard. But just fixing the defender compared to nerfing is an acceptable lazy fix in comparison to fixing the rest of the fleet where it needs fixing.

—Ω—
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#583 - 2012-09-18 20:57:08 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)

Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.


Do you really think that a tracking computer counters a tracking disruptor?


PS. Show me the shield cane fit with a tracking computer and a web.

It sure mitigates it.

Another counter could be to bring a friend with tracking links. Hue hue.


Welcome to blob online, bring a fleet of ships to counter a single enemies ewar. Roll

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Ensign X
#584 - 2012-09-18 20:57:24 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Ensign X wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing.


Sure you can. You just won't be able to fit 2 1600mm plates, 2x Medium Neuts and 425mm ACs. You'll have to work for your fitting. Try using 1 plate. Or downgrade your neuts. Or downgrade your ACs. Trust me, it works.


You cant fit that. Dual plate requires 180s.;


And Small Neuts. I'm aware. I was referring more to the implication that somehow 'Canes will no longer be able to fit an armor tank when, in reality, they just won't be able to dual plate their armor 'Canes.
Wolfstorm
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#585 - 2012-09-18 20:59:06 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:


Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing. Nice work on making the game even more uniform and less interesting.



Armor cane FTW ... no one but pirates seem to fly one anymore tho.

But again our CCP design team is crap and they don't look at all the uses a ship gets and instead only go hey, it can be used in one way we think we might not like so we gotta break it so it can't be used like that, but damn the side effects of other things it's no longer good for.

We don't want WOW in space, in fact we want WOW in space players to quit and go find a game suited to them.
Barrak
The Painted Ones
#586 - 2012-09-18 21:00:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time


Hate to be the one to let you know, but isn't a Submarine we're talking about where the missiles/Torp are connected to the boat via cable.

I assume by using TD's you are going to make people target individual missiles and TD them else I don't see how this works in accordance with EvE's mechanics.

You're breaking your own physics to nerf something........ at least put some effort into creating something specific that does this, rather than the outstanding idea someone clearly had sitting around the large conference table with a coffee in their hand......."oh let a gun tracking disruptor that affects turrents ON ships, now affect an intelligent ammo that has it's own built in systems".
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#587 - 2012-09-18 21:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Laura Dexx
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.


Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing. Nice work on making the game even more uniform and less interesting.


[Hurricane, 1125 base PG (AWU III ENGI V)]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5
Warrior II x1

There. Still a great brawling ship. Still has the utility slots. Just not as brutally strong as it used to be. If you really want a med neut, drop the 425s to 220s and you can switch a small neutralizer for a medium one. You have to make choices now. Like all the rest of us.
stoicfaux
#588 - 2012-09-18 21:01:03 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)

How do TC/TEs impact Target Painters? Will TPs become primarily a fleet weapon?

Golem. If TC/TEs are "better" than TPs, will the Golem's Target Painting and/or Explosion Velocity bonii be changed?


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#589 - 2012-09-18 21:01:27 UTC
It's like CCP Fozzie can read my mind!

Also can you please look at medium rails Fozzie, they are completely useless on everything. Please look at the insanely high fitting requirements of them. There is plenty of time before winter gets here. Cool
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#590 - 2012-09-18 21:02:29 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


..because comparing guns with missiles is good to begin with? Why don't you add in drones in that equation too, that's about as reasonable as your apples and oranges. If you wanted to be fair, you'd at the very least also mention missiles travel time, and mention smartbomb/FoF that kills missiles/drones but not gun damage (but you could mention TDs affect guns/drones but not missiles).

You also forgot to mention which ships that is affected in what way with what bonuses (gun- and missile ships tend to have a different way of handing out bonuses, like your beam comment should mention that almost every damn Amarr ship there is has a cap bonus built in).

Horrible one-sided argument with obvious flaws, mate, try again.


TDs will now effect missiles.
Ok travel time but missiles still have more base range and damage.
They have upped missile velocity to compensate.
Missiles are capless (the amarr bonus is considered as a waste cos its there to compensate for a built in redundancy with weapons)

....
Catabolistic
Perkone
Caldari State
#591 - 2012-09-18 21:02:35 UTC
Really this whole can of worms will be a game killer.
No easly trainable PVE ship will exist for low skill pilots.
TD will be a god module.
The blob is the real issue but instead you kill off a large section of solo play with these proposed changes.
I might as well put discos on my tengu and go f*ck someone up in jita.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#592 - 2012-09-18 21:03:05 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Way to completely hamstring the hurricane. You won't be able to fit a decent armor cane with these changes. It's now a ****** nano-cane or nothing.


Sure you can. You just won't be able to fit 2 1600mm plates, 2x Medium Neuts and 425mm ACs. You'll have to work for your fitting. Try using 1 plate. Or downgrade your neuts. Or downgrade your ACs. Trust me, it works.


Decent armor cane fit is 220s, 2 med nuets, mwd, and 1 1600mm plate. With these changes, you'll either lose about 8k EHP by switching a trimark to an ACR, have to drop to 180s, or use small neuts. Pretty much all of these mean you'll have a hard time going toe-to-toe with any of the other BCs.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#593 - 2012-09-18 21:03:12 UTC
Oh my god. This thread.

9/10 complaining about their drake and tengu. 10/10 people haven't seen the impending changes to the drake/tengu. How can you say something is usless, when you haven't seen what they want to do with it?

So, IGNORE the stupid drakegu, and look at these medium weapons on the cruisers listed, not on hypothetical theorycrafting about ships not yet balanced. CCP is likely largely aware of the huge nerf to the drake and will give it some changes to compensate and not make it useless.

See that, it's called being reasonable.

+1 for Cane needing tradeoffs like other ships, and having to make fitting decisions.

+1 for HMLs being brought in line in terms of damage projection at range

+1 for T2 missile buffs

+1 TD effecting missiles, now my pilgrim can go on blops roams without remote reps equipped

+1 Tracking Enhancers/computers effecting Missiles, to counter the range nerf, and tracking disruptor.

On the "omg tracking disruptors now the god module" Sensor dampners would like a word with you and how little you see them used despite the fact they effect every ship with 0% chance of missing.

Sure TD's might be due to a slight nerf, but they won't proliferate on that basis alone, as damps have obviously not done as so either. (Yes I know they were nerfed, and Yes they are being talked about brought back into effectiveness, ECM is not the only ewar module out there).
Basil Wencislas
Ireco Industries
#594 - 2012-09-18 21:03:20 UTC
Applying TDs to Missles makes absolutely no sense. Alot of people forget that there already is a counter to missles, just no one uses them because they take up a high slot and a missle launcher spot to boot. Why not create a module specific for countering missles, something along the lines of an AMS ZWIS like todays Naval fleets use, and perhaps make it a low or medium slot item?

TDs should apply to the ship, not the launcher. It would make perfect sense to have a TD however that say, limited the fire rate of missle launcher. To say that a TD somehow affects missle explosion velocity is absurd in my opinion. That is the point of missles, they are a different class of weapon with different characteristics, and different counter measures. By implementing a patch that makes everything apply to everything is not a direction CCP should be taking because people are unhappy with drake blobs.

If the problem is the drake, fix the drake.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#595 - 2012-09-18 21:04:26 UTC
Although everybody is talking about cruisers and battlecruisers, I want to divert attention to another point that seems to be overlooked.

What will these changes mean on battleship level. Will torpedoes have longer range with TC/TE's now. Are we going to get torpedo ships that can actually hit smaller stuff by using TE/TC's. Did you guys consider these parameters when thinking about TE/TC for missiles?

Everybody is talking about the 20% damage nerf which is just one part of the nerf hammer.

"-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

T2 Fury missiles were actually very efficient missiles for their job and they were adding a lot of DPS. Many tengu/drake pilots were using them as default as they are cheaper than their faction counterparts. With the new changes I doubt they can be used against anything cruiser sized anymore.

I liked the fact that CCP actually has balls to go with this type of change. It may make the high-sec crowd cry a bit. It may even result in some loss of subscribers. But it will make eve much more playable and (more importantly) enjoyable in the long run, thus generating more subscribers in the long run.

Go Fozzie!!!!
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#596 - 2012-09-18 21:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Wolfstorm wrote:
The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok.


This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#597 - 2012-09-18 21:09:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)

So _all_ Caldari missile ships are getting additional low and mid slots?

Because we all know how few low slots they have, and their lack of spare mids are already a problem for PvP.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#598 - 2012-09-18 21:11:09 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)

So _all_ Caldari missile ships are getting additional low and mid slots?

Because we all know how few low slots they have, and their lack of spare mids are already a problem for PvP.


I don't tend to have any problems PVPing in Caldari ships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Signal11th
#599 - 2012-09-18 21:11:11 UTC
I'm not one to whinge about updates but really, what clown thought this was going to get a postiive reception?

CCP MORE CONTENT!!!!!!!! stop messing with modules.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#600 - 2012-09-18 21:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Catabolistic wrote:
No easly trainable PVE ship will exist for low skill pilots.
Lol

Not everyone trained for stupid easy-mode missiles or afk drone boats. You're saying you've never met any of us who can't fly caldari/missile ships, especially for pve, and yet made it from noob to comfortably able to make a plex in an evening?