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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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D3vastator
Fight With Gusto
#441 - 2012-09-18 19:04:43 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:
Please post the fits where an ishkur out dps and out tanks a tengu.

Then we'll laugh at how failfit your tengu must be to be outclassed by an assault frig.

Level 4s are meant to require battleships. Tengus were never supposed to replace BSs. Fly a CNR like everyone else. This is as much a buff to torps as it is a nerf to HMLs. Now torp navy scorps will rock.


Ah, my bad. IshTAR :P
Catabolistic
Perkone
Caldari State
#442 - 2012-09-18 19:05:28 UTC
CCP needs to understand that a 20% HML damage reduction will equal a 20% subscriber loss.

Justification:
You will have rendered Caldari pilots like myself useless. Between the drake and tengu thats about a years worth training thrown out the window. In your math did you fail to realize that missles do significantly less damage to moving targets as well as targets with a smaller sig radius? Do you really want your new Caldari pilots in a drake taking 15 minutes to kill a single angel viper?

Try this:
Buff the other medium long range weapons so that they are actually useful. Quite simply they need a 15% base increase in both tracking and dps. Once that is done, now pilots will have more viable fitting options and noone will ragequit over range tweekings.
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2012-09-18 19:06:18 UTC
hey CCP fozzie why don't you nerf the 400km range of sleepers too so we can actually use TD's against them? as far as im concerned sleepers have infinite range and while they are susceptible to ECM and target painting forms of EWAR, sensor dampeners and TD's so absolutely nothing
Mourning Souls
Minmatar Republic
#444 - 2012-09-18 19:07:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant.


How is that an upshot? From my understanding the word "upshot" is supposed to be a good thing.

Full rack of 720's with a MWD and LSE right now only requires a ACR, needing a RCU2 as well isn't an upshot.
Ensign X
#445 - 2012-09-18 19:07:50 UTC
Laura Dexx wrote:
Kiru SnaKe wrote:
Dear CCP,

If HML's are to be nerfed at that level of sh*t please at least reimburse my skill points...


You had your flavor of the month, get on with the next.


HMLs were never FOTM. 2 of the ships that use them were FOTM. Try not to be so intentionally obtuse.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#446 - 2012-09-18 19:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
Aglais wrote:
LtCol Laurentius wrote:


Actually, when you look at effective (as opposed to theoretical) DPS against 200 m/sec moving targets of equal (cruiser) size, the numbers still come out with an advantage to HMLs even after the nerf, and thats before any damage reduction as a result of transversal is factored in. I'd say that HMLs still will deliver twice the effective DPS as a 250mm rail/spike combo for example.


"If you'll see here, the effective damage that missiles will output compared to railguns is approximately double."
>Missiles will output compared to railguns
>compared to railguns
>railguns

Don't compare things to railguns. Everything will be better than railguns. This is objective fact.



Allright. Compared to beam lasers, the nerfed HMLs will deliver almost twice as much effective DPS. Compared to Artillery, the nerfed HMLs will deliver 3.5 times the effective DPS with 80% of the artillery alpha.

Conclusion: After the nerf, the HMLs will probably still be the best weapon system in the game in effective damage application. Its downside will continue to be the delay of that application, but all in all i'd say we have a better balance now.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2012-09-18 19:09:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Here are some numbers on HAMs. The maximum range of HAMs with Javelin missiles is 30.4 km.

I'm assuming a bonus of +30% flight time per Tracking Computer loaded with the optimal range script. This gives the following

Javelin max range with no velocity rigs:
1 TC: 39.5 km
2 TC: 47.4 km
3 TC: 52.6 km

Javelin max range with a +15% velocity rig:
1 TC: 45.3 km
2 TC: 54.4 km
3 TC: 60.4 km

Javelin max range with two +15% velocity rigs:
1 TC: 51.3 km
2 TC: 61.6 km
3 TC: 68.4 km

Javelin max range with three +15% velocity rigs:
1 TC: 55.7 km
2 TC: 66.9 km
3 TC: 74.3 km

And for fun, max range with two +20% velocity rigs, one +15% velocity rig, a 5% velocity implant and three tracking computers: 84.5 km.

Disclaimer: we don't actually know how much tracking computers will increase flight time on missiles, the 30% is just my speculation.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#448 - 2012-09-18 19:09:23 UTC
D3vastator wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
Please post the fits where an ishkur out dps and out tanks a tengu.

Then we'll laugh at how failfit your tengu must be to be outclassed by an assault frig.

Level 4s are meant to require battleships. Tengus were never supposed to replace BSs. Fly a CNR like everyone else. This is as much a buff to torps as it is a nerf to HMLs. Now torp navy scorps will rock.


Ah, my bad. IshTAR :P
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1938285#post1938285

Seriously, your more expensive tech3 is meant to be a stepping stone to the superior specialised t2 ship for the particular role. Because you can get isk faster than SP. Tengus are brokenly overpowered, they need nerfs.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2012-09-18 19:11:44 UTC
For the record, hate all the missile changes. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#450 - 2012-09-18 19:11:45 UTC
On the cane thing. I think 225 might be a bit much.

Maybe like 180 PG? So that means my 1600mm plated Hurricane can just drop 1 neut and still be flown? Twisted

Where I am.
Ensign X
#451 - 2012-09-18 19:11:52 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Allright. Compared to beam lasers, the nerfed HMLs will deliver almost twice as much effective DPS. Compared to Artillery, the nerfed HMLs will deliver 3.5 times the effective DPS with 80% of the artillery alpha.


What kind of terrible, Anchorman math is this? Even Ron Burgundy could see through this steaming pile of nonsense.
Laura Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#452 - 2012-09-18 19:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Laura Dexx
Daneel Trevize wrote:
D3vastator wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
Please post the fits where an ishkur out dps and out tanks a tengu.

Then we'll laugh at how failfit your tengu must be to be outclassed by an assault frig.

Level 4s are meant to require battleships. Tengus were never supposed to replace BSs. Fly a CNR like everyone else. This is as much a buff to torps as it is a nerf to HMLs. Now torp navy scorps will rock.


Ah, my bad. IshTAR :P
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1938285#post1938285

Seriously, your more expensive tech3 is meant to be a stepping stone to the superior specialised t2 ship for the particular role. Because you can get isk faster than SP. Tengus are brokenly overpowered, they need nerfs.


All T3s do. And they will. Give it a couple of days for those dev blogs to go live.

Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote:
For the record, hate all the missile changes. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.


(they are broken)
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#453 - 2012-09-18 19:14:20 UTC
Not sure whether it was posted (23 pages, yay), but will we get TC and TE equivalents for missiles?
Ensign X
#454 - 2012-09-18 19:15:32 UTC
Laura Dexx wrote:
All T3s do. And they will. Give it a couple of days for those dev blogs to go live.


You said this before, but now I'm wondering what insight you have that suggests CCP will be releasing Dev Blogs about T2 and T3 ship re-balancing in the next couple days?
D3vastator
Fight With Gusto
#455 - 2012-09-18 19:16:10 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Assuming you meant Ishtar, you're saying a HAC, dedicated DPS boat that takes longer to train to max skills, does better what is a mostly dps-based activity than a supposedly jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none tech3?

\o/ Balance, we have it people!!!


I did mean Ishtar. However, considering the fact that neither Caldari HAC can come close to soloing L4 missions, I'd say that we don't really have balance here. The Tengu outclasses both Caldari HACs by an enormous margin. In fact, this update appears to make the Caracal almost on-par with the Cerberus...

Daneel Trevize wrote:
Also no one cares about your ability to just run lvl4s like they're their own little bubble universe, instead we care only how quickly you can produce isk, LP and ingame items from them to manage inflation throughout the whole economy & game. If you ran lvl4s in twice the time but everything dropped to half the price while we got more balanced weapond & ships, so be it.


I understand that. I just wanted to point out how badly this will effect those in my situation. Tengu has been the go-to Caldari mission ship for years. I just sold my SNI less than two weeks ago to trade into a Tengu. It looks like I'm going to have to trade back after this update.
Ensign X
#456 - 2012-09-18 19:16:25 UTC
Iogrim wrote:
Not sure whether it was posted (23 pages, yay), but will we get TC and TE equivalents for missiles?


Dude, it was right in the OP. Ugh

Quote:

-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#457 - 2012-09-18 19:16:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Those ships are getting their skulls cracked by the nerfhammer in order to make room for other ships to be flown. It really is necessary, and your response is a perfect example of how individual players never have a game's long term interests at heart. They only have their own short term interests in mind, even if it kills the game in the process.

-Liang


Not to mention that there's plenty of threads out there where players rightfully express concern about "stat creep" whenever CCP's response to imbalance is solely to buff a statistic. Either way, these kind of changes inevitably cause complaint regardless of merit.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#458 - 2012-09-18 19:17:40 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Btw, when are medium rails going to become in any way usable in PvP?
Arty clearly is, HMs have been, beams too. Rails are just godawful on Gal or Cal ships.


^^^^This

HM nerf not needed.

Medium Rails buff needed.
Eradin Amakiir
Midget Strippers and Lollipops
#459 - 2012-09-18 19:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Eradin Amakiir
Whelp, guess there's no reason to train Caldari ships any more.

I mean, really, Drake and Tengu are too strong, so let's ruin a whole bunch of Caldari ships. Great idea. Roll
sembur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2012-09-18 19:18:40 UTC
Some interesting changes here. Look forward to shaking up the metagame.
Buffered armor cane is going to get pinched a bit, but that just means we need to get active armor tanking revisited soon.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

Two things:

  1. I still don't see a clarification: are these changes to explosion velocity and radius ALL missiles or just Guided?
  2. Tracking speed disruption is the new counter to Target Painters. Amarr ewar counters Minmatar ewar. ISWYDT


I read 20 pages of this drek and didn't see someone else mention the TD vs TP bit.

P.S. Thanks for doing BSB #20. Stay visible, the communication is appreciated, yadda yadda, but plz also geef devblog when changes solidify. Trolling the forums is a terrible experience and makes me listen to emo rock.