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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2012-09-18 17:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Schneider
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:

You must have realized that missiles have their own problems, a blanket solution and saying that missiles should be brought to the DPS level of other weapon types doesn't make sense.

  • Aside from bombs, missiles (and it's variants) are the only weapon type that doesn't deal instantaneous damage
  • the only weapon type that can be firewalled
  • the only weapon system in which target sig penalty always applies, regardless of whether they're moving or not
  • and it is the primary weapon system for most caldari ships in which : a lot of new players are using/training into and a lot of older players invested into, and it uses launcher hardpoints, so it's not interchangeable to other weapon types like guns do.


I don't disagree with the nerf, but the damage reduction is too much considering the other nerfs are also put in place.


I understand where you're coming from, missile have some inherent disadvantages, but these changes STILL leave HML's as king of DPS in their optimal range, even after damage and range nerfs.

"Too many nerfs at once" is itself an arbitrary sentiment - these changes should be evaluated based on where they leave missiles in comparison to other weapons systems. There is no magic number of nerfs (1? 2? 3?) that is "too many" for any change that needs to happen to any ship. It all boils down to whether they achieve the desired results.


Why does where I'm coming from got to do with anything? I wasn't talking about pvp/fleet battle pov of missiles. I was talking about missile mechanics in general, regardless of the application. The point was that missiles are different, people treat them differently because they are different, we can't really compare missiles to other weapon types only by reviewing their dps potential, they have different mechanics.

The only thing missiles are really good at, are it's potential range for a medium weapon platform and how the changes in range affects the dps projection in which missiles have none, as you know it already, as long as it's in range, they deal the same amount of dps regardless of range and transversal, as for the rest, they are worse than the other, they have travel times, signature penalties in which still applies even to static targets and can be countered in a way that gunnery weapons can't.

"Too many" is more qualitative aspect here, we're not talking about the number of nerfs, heck CCP can made changes to all of the missile attributes if they want to, we probably won't care. It is how much and to what extent the changes will affect the missile weapon system itself is what really matters.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
The Djentleman Paulson
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#342 - 2012-09-18 17:41:07 UTC
BUT MY HURRICANE
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#343 - 2012-09-18 17:41:10 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:

This is awful. Missiles are already underused in PvP...



stopped reading at that point

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Steelshine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-09-18 17:42:15 UTC
Roime wrote:
ITT people who don't realize that HMLs are still the best medium sized long range weapons.



Because making everything **** is preferable to making everything viable.
eVRiAL
Reveka.
Bad-Touch
#345 - 2012-09-18 17:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: eVRiAL
CCP, why not give the missiles instant damage if you encourage rebalance them with guns.
No, I mean, TC and TE on caldari ships, seriously? Give them a proper name though. What?
rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-09-18 17:44:02 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
rofflesausage wrote:

This is awful. Missiles are already underused in PvP...



stopped reading at that point


Helps if you get into PvP to be fair.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2012-09-18 17:44:16 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
If you're going to compare long range guns and HMLs, use the long range tech II ammo in the HML too.

Then do your graphs again with CN scourge vs. CN antimatter and Navy MF.

At least talk apples to apples. Then you can at least make useful comparisons.



Long Range Tech 2 missile ammo?

You do realize that both T2 missiles have shorter range than T1 and Faction missiles right?

Faction Missiles are the ones used for long range engagements. They are the more expensive long range ammunition of choice, just like the T2 ammo is.
2ofSpades
Doomheim
#348 - 2012-09-18 17:44:42 UTC
This looks cool as long as the damage doesn't get nerfed too much in the end. I thought the idea was high damage ammo is made made to hit big targets hard but little targets not so well.
Inggroth
Harbingers of Reset
#349 - 2012-09-18 17:45:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and increases explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time

Please please please reconsider this. Its one huge step towards making every weapon system the exact same, which makes for a shallow game.

HM nerf was waiting to happen for a very long time - i'm sure you'll have to correct the exact numbers a bit but the overall idea is fine in my opinion.
I interpret the Hurricane PG nerf and Arty PG requirement tweak as a nice little Muninn buff, so thats cool Cool
Fras Siabi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2012-09-18 17:45:56 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:


This is awful. Missiles are already underused in PvP, being pretty much banned in some fleets I've been in.


What?

Not all who wander are lost, but most of them are complete idiots.
darius mclever
#351 - 2012-09-18 17:47:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Are you suggesting that missiles should be instant damage?


no but they should still be the highest dps... but not by that much...

20% might be to harsh... perhaps 15% would be better...

but look at advantages for missiles

damage selection...


To some extend. most of the time you will be using the bonused missiles.

Quote:

no decrease of damage over range

sure it has delayed damage but thats ok....


* even in flying away from your attacker in a straight line will reduce the incoming dps. with turrets you will just give them perfect tracking until you manage to run out of their range.
* smart bombs.
* and soon to be tracking disruptors.

Quote:

its just td's are now kind of OP and should have thier base bonus reduced...

i would reduce base bonus on TD to 15% for falloff optimal range and tracking...

but inkind i would increase the bonus on amarr special ships to 10% to compensate...

that way TD will be good but only on amarr special EW ships...
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2012-09-18 17:47:51 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:

This is awful. Missiles are already underused in PvP, being pretty much banned in some fleets I've been in.

You are wrong. It's exactly the opposite.

rofflesausage wrote:

Their travel time, reload time, being reduced by smartbombs (a genuine problem when in capital warfare), and having vastly reduced damage by anything moving are serious problems.

Their biggest advantage is their range - which often means being out of tackle range and offering alpha support, thus being later into the battle anyway when in small cloaky fleets.

I simply can not see why you think they are over powered. It feels like someone has taken a look at a DPS spreadsheet and ignored everything else about them. This isn't far off 2 BCUs worth of damage.

Please take a look at the ships that use Heavy Missiles and check out their actual use in PvP - it's small compared to other damage systems. Caldari HACs are massively underused, The Nighthawk is barely used, and I've seen many Onxy just fit as many bubbles as they can with scripts because they are so bad.

I would urge you to look at what players are actually doing, and not what a spreadsheet is saying.

edit - you might want to also factor in that rails are still poor, meaning Caldari are really getting hit hard here.

You are right.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Alexandr Archer
LENINGRAD SPB Ru
#353 - 2012-09-18 17:52:32 UTC
First of all i must apologise for my English, it is far from perfect.

But i have proposition have to resolve this problem with HM:

1.Fury modification of missiles :
a)cutoff half from range
b)damage remain the same as it is now
c)Remove penalties on signature of ship

Concept of using: VS slower then you,but more survivable ship
Exaple: Drake vs BSips,


2.Precision modification of missiles:
a)range of current Fury/Faction/T1 missiles
b)damage remain the same as it is now
c)remove penalties of ship's speed

Concept of using: VS faster and smaller targets,less dps but with improve range.Also work as longrange modification of another t2 ammo.
Exaple:Nighthwak vs intercepter(with Fury you even willn't scratch it)
3.Faction modification of missiles

a)33% cutoff from range
b)damage reduced by 10%
Concept of using:Vs medium ship types.
Exaple:Drake vs Hurricane,Harbringer.

4.T1 modification of missiles:
a)33% cutoff from range
b)damage reduced by 10%
Concept of using:Vs medium ship types.
Exaple:Drake vs Hurricane,Harbringer.

Bloobs cant get same DPS with the same range.Medium and small scale pvp is still an option.PVE don't lose all,but only half of range.All caldari ships still will be in using.

Thanks for reading!Big smile
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#354 - 2012-09-18 17:52:46 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
If you're going to compare long range guns and HMLs, use the long range tech II ammo in the HML too.


What is the long range tech II ammo for HMLs?
Ensign X
#355 - 2012-09-18 17:54:15 UTC
The makers of Ben and Jerry Ice Cream became aware that their Chunky Monkey brand of Ice Cream was outselling all their other flavours. It seemed everybody wanted to eat Chunky Monkey because it was so delicious. But Ben and Jerry wanted their other brands to be just as good as Chunky Monkey so that everybody could enjoy them. So Ben and Jerry went and took a **** in their next batch of Chunky Monkey. When asked why would they do this, they answered:

"It was just so much easier to make Chunky Monkey taste like **** than to make the other flavours taste better."

CCP went to the Ben and Jerry School of Product Design.
Jean Leaner
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#356 - 2012-09-18 17:54:40 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?



Often, its called firewall.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#357 - 2012-09-18 17:55:35 UTC
OP = Legend.

About time HML got brought into line.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#358 - 2012-09-18 17:56:33 UTC
Hooray for 90% tracking disruptors!
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#359 - 2012-09-18 17:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Greil
For reference, and because someone else quoted laughably wrong numbers before:

Currently: All level 5 skills, no drones
Drake, 7 HML IIs, 2 BCU IIs:
321 dps @ 84.4 km, regular scourge missiles

Harbinger, 7 Heavy beam laser IIs, 2 heatsink IIs:
407 dps @ 15+10 km, regular multifrequency
271 dps @ 54+10 km, aurora

Cane, 6 720mm howitzer IIs, 2 gyros IIs
371 dps @ 15+22 km, regular EMP
247 dps @ 54+22 km, tremor

Myrm (bad comparison, because of lack of drones)
6 250mm railgun IIs, 2 magstab IIs, regular antimatter
265 dps @ 18+15 km, regular antimatter
176 dps @ 65+15 km, spike

please tell me how HML aren't overpowered.
still the dps nerf seems a bit steep.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#360 - 2012-09-18 17:58:36 UTC
Awesome changes CCP Fozzie have a gold star on me :P

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using