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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2012-09-18 16:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Hurricanes have always been insanely overpowered with 2 medium neuts, capless guns and fairly awesome speed. It's a nice change to remove 1 of the medium neuts, but in all likelihood the ship itself will still probably be a little overpowered with the excellent tracking from 220s and a single medium neut (shield fit anyways).
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#262 - 2012-09-18 16:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashera Yune
Why are you increasing the explosion radius of precision missiles?

Isn't this counter intuitive?



Torpedos would use a buff in range, their range is nearly the same range as HAM's.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2012-09-18 16:23:41 UTC
Instead of flight time, why not make range-scripted TDs affect missile speed instead? Not only does it make more sense from a fluff perspective, but it aso gives them some potential synergy with defenders and smartbombs.

As for disruption scripts, I suspect that modifying missile explosion radius/velocity at all is a dangerous road to go down, but that will be revealed in testing.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2012-09-18 16:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
In comparing HMLs and other long range weapon system, one important thing that is often forgotten is fitting requirements.

Beam lasers, artillery and railguns have higher fitting requirements than their close range equivalent. In particular beam and artillery ships tend to be glass cannons due to the high fitting requirements. In contrast, HMLs have similar fitting requirements as their close range equivalent (slightly more CPU, slightly less PG). This means they have room for a substantial tank.

I believe that this is the main compensation for the drawback of travel time. HML ships take longer to apply damage, but it also takes longer for instant damage dealers to destroy them.
Tarithell
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#265 - 2012-09-18 16:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarithell
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.

I'd like to start off by reminding people that everything in these F&I threads is open to changes, however there are some significant balance issues being dealt with here that will need to be solved in one way or another. There are also some details that remain to be ironed out but we wanted to get these ideas out to you all as early as possible.

I'll start off with the orphan announcement. In the Attack Cruiser thread we also announced changes to medium gun fittings. We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time but I wanted that thread to stay dedicated to the specific cruiser balance instead of getting derailed so we're moving that here.
Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.
The hurricane will likely receive significantly more changes when we get to battlecruisers in the balance pass, but this is designed as a compensation for the drop in Arty PG and to help alleviate the problem of Arty ships having so much free PG when they use autocannons.

The meat of this thread however is about missiles. There's a number of missile changes we have planned for the Winter, including the already announced buff to light missiles, a nerf to heavy missile range and damage to put them in line with other long range cruiser weapons, a rework of all T2 missiles so they become usable, and the expansion of both tracking enhancers and tracking disruptors into the realm of missiles.

All Missiles
Increase missile acceleration so that real range is much closer to the client assumed range of flighttime*speed against a stationary target. This means a slight range buff for all missiles, and missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players.

Light Missiles
-Explosion radius reduced from 50 to 40
-Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles
-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range, increase damage slightly

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time


Is ccp prepared for the sh1tstorm is causing with missile nerf?
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#266 - 2012-09-18 16:24:22 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
there will be lot of TD on every ship after this change.
How?

Will someone please tell me how we get free TDs on all the ships?!


The answer: Because people won't be flying primarily HML ships now.
whaynethepain
#267 - 2012-09-18 16:25:52 UTC
Didn't want that drake anyway, insta-canes with an LSE II only increases it's sig.

But yea, thanks CCP, I really was getting fed up of the drake, nice ship, but it's place as the primary choice for a large fleet, was an insult to my training queue.

Of course we will need a T II combat BS with Jump-Drives, to fill the void, but that's another thread.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-09-18 16:27:57 UTC
20% is waaaay to much. If you add to it that people will have to swap one BCS tor low slot tracking module damage nerf goes into 30's %


You should consider lowering HML nerf and FIX HAM's explosion velocity, missile velocity and explosion radius so that they can actually deal their damage, maybe add a small buff to their damage.

Instead you just killed entire Caldari ship line.

Also - With missiles we have to wait a loooong time to deal damage, while all other weapons are instant.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2012-09-18 16:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord MuffloN
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:>Needs buff, medium rails are the most useless thing in the game currently.
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Time to hit: instant
Affected by range outside of maximum range+falloff: Yes
Contains random elements to damage: Yes
Can choose damagetype: Nope, fixed.
Reload Time: 5s

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:>Needs buff, probably will get one cause they suck
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
Time to hit: instant
Affected by range outside of maximum range+falloff: Yes
Contains random elements to damage: Yes
Can choose damagetype: Nope, fixed.
Reload Time: Instant

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Time to hit: instant
Affected by range outside of maximum range+falloff: Yes
Contains random elements to damage: Yes
Can choose damagetype: To a great degree yes.
Reload Time: 10s

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Time to hit: 10 seconds
Affected by range outside of maximum range+falloff: Nope
Contains random elements to damage: Nope
Can choose damagetype: Yes, bonus may or may not apply.
Reload Time: 10s

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


fixed


Aaaaand once we sprinkle some additonal stats and intellectual honesty to it...

Oh hey, that looks good, on paper at least, guess we should slap this ***** on Buckingham and give it a spin.

(That said, all medium weaponry suck, but now they can suck equally!)

And hey, if you want to hit moving targets then you better load precision, because god knows I have to load stuff other than Javelin, Conflag, Void etc.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#270 - 2012-09-18 16:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
having recon and eaf at 5 and loving the pilgrim and sentinel i somehow do not like the new omni powers of TD.

firstly it renders defender missiels from useless to officially useless. Secondly ships like sentinels are already good enough in solo mode, i don't see why its good to increase the range of potential victims. Whats really left after the patch are gallente drone boats which would beat a sentinel solo.

Last but not least its difficult to justify that a module targeted at a ship influences the flightrange of a missile... this won't work even in star trek.


Instead of making a TD into a WD (weapon disruptor) i would rather like to see a new, medium slot, anti missile mod which is useable for solo and fleet support.
Remove defender missiles and add something what works please. But keep the destinction between anti turret and anti missile EWAR.


(and if you really give the change a go, please rename TD into WD)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Wicked Princess
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#271 - 2012-09-18 16:31:13 UTC
BEST...NERF...EVER.

Thank you, CCP!!! :)
Tover Chris
Suicide Kings
#272 - 2012-09-18 16:34:10 UTC
Allandri wrote:
Since I don't use dreadnaughts, what is the implication of this change with regards to pilots using Phoenix's?


The Phoenix excels at one thing, shooting towers. I think the tracking will be a-ok.
Smoke Adian
#273 - 2012-09-18 16:37:38 UTC
Why doesn't CCP just give every ship a permanent TD slot already prefitted? Will save a lot of clicking. TIA
Royal Hammer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2012-09-18 16:38:39 UTC
So anyone that has spent months training up skills to use drakes or tengus just gets completely shafted? Was anyone complaining about heavy missiles being too powerful? The drake already does **** for damage. And now it's going to be worse? CCP, please do not go through with a huge nerf that gives a big middle finger to Caldari pilots everywhere.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#275 - 2012-09-18 16:39:08 UTC
For all those that are upset about the heavy missile nerf - we need one of the spreadsheet jockeys here to throw up a graph of DPS vs range for all four battlecruisers. Compare max skilled Drake with HML, navy missiles to a Ferox, Brutix, Hurricane, and harbinger (also with max skills) using the longest-range ammo. Ignore modules and rigs for now - we've seen both tank and gank varieties of all of the above.

Comparing raw DPS and range both before and after the changes, it becomes quite apparent why HML's are being brought in line with other weapons systems. They should provide consistent damage, certainly, but do not need to win both in maximum DPS within optimal AND a base range that exceeds the falloff of most of the long-range turrets.

It's hard to see with numbers on a page - but if you look at the damage curves, they tell the whole story.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
OlRotGut
#276 - 2012-09-18 16:39:20 UTC
HAM's already were quite blah, and now they are worse.

Missile speeds only increased 6.66%? Should be much more. Range nerf is totally fine with me, but please fix bonuses on ships that prefer one damage type.

I also think that you should clarify the changes to the T2 missiles. It says you increased fury damage, but how does that translate with the 20% damage nerf of all Heavy missiles?
Vincent VanDamme
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#277 - 2012-09-18 16:39:42 UTC
So,

*looks at all the time spent on missile skills*

Any chance of a Respec? Because I think I wasted some time on a soon to be useless weapon system.

I mean i could try Hybrid..no..wait...hybrids still suck.

So , if you can let me know what weapon systems wont be colossally nerfed to innefectivness , that would be super. And a respec, so i can get out of the Caldari niche, and go into a niche that actually will allow me to scratch other things.

P.S. I woudl suggest your game design team doing staged Nerfs to see how it works as opposed to just destroying the viability of several Caldari ships.
djswitch47
Double-Down
#278 - 2012-09-18 16:42:02 UTC
Let all the bears shed tears we will be sitting back collecting them with 5 gal buckets to water our ganja plants with Blink
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#279 - 2012-09-18 16:43:40 UTC
Why don't you stop thinking about just the drake and tengu and consider the other ships that use Heavy missiles:


Caracal
Bellicose(future suggestion by CCP)
Navy Caracal
Nighthawk
Rook
Cerberus

What I don't like is the blanket nerf, that not only nerfs the drake and tengu, but nerfs ships that were never OP, and mostly UP in the first place.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#280 - 2012-09-18 16:44:35 UTC
The fitting is still backwards for all launchers except frigate-sized. Rockets and torps still have not enough launcher capacity. Hams and torps still don't hit stuff well enough. Torp range is still too low. Heavies still hit small stuff too well.
Would be cool as well if GMP skill and rigor rigs affected all types.