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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2012-09-18 16:12:51 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?

Yes, infact, we (and I'm sure other alliances/coallitions as well) do firewalls quite often. It's a fairly common tactic to reduce and even nullify incoming missile damage.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#242 - 2012-09-18 16:13:30 UTC
Kriorth wrote:
Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?
Not sure if I'm missing some sarcasm or you're unaware of medium railguns having terrible tracking & range combos regardless of ammo.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#243 - 2012-09-18 16:13:50 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
20%? seriously? 5 or even 10 would be ok, but 20% is the same as slapping people who have HM skills trained and kick them right on the groins.



good!

drake fleet was never meant to be a doctrine...

kill all drakes!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#244 - 2012-09-18 16:14:13 UTC
The changes sound harsh and I am weeping for my collection of almighty hurricanes but I think they are needed.
Take a few days and think about them and the greater picture and you will see.
Sellendis
The Ares project
#245 - 2012-09-18 16:14:46 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sellendis wrote:
Did anyone even see a minmatar BC or Comm. ship in the AT X?

Uh. Sleipnir, Cyclone. Almost 300 fielded ships, that's basically NONE~


That was intended sarcasm :)
Minm ships were deployed like crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY&feature=related
Pretty sure this is how CCP balances things....sadly.

AT X ship usage...

Merlin - 149

Tengu - 48
Drake - 7

Sleipnir - 146
Cyclone - 129

According to this numbers, nerfing HMs is completely ok.
Rita May
State War Academy
Caldari State
#246 - 2012-09-18 16:14:47 UTC
uh, one thinghy i nearly forgot:

like the Carebear i am i want to ask if all the NPCs are going to get some "defender-turrets"?
Because, like how it is now missles against NPCs already receive an "applied" damage reduction that turrets do not?

cu
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#247 - 2012-09-18 16:15:18 UTC
How nice of CCP announce these changes in advance so I can make sure to sell my Tengu and whatever Drakes I have lying around.

You keep doing these heavy-handed changes--supercarriers and mining barges, for example--and it never ends well. Ever.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#248 - 2012-09-18 16:15:28 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
MisterNick wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?

Yes, infact, we (and I'm sure other alliances/coallitions as well) do firewalls quite often. It's a fairly common tactic to reduce and even nullify incoming missile damage.


I confess myself surprised, always assumed it was a gimmick.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Planetary Genocide
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#249 - 2012-09-18 16:15:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


Danggg. Dat Tengu/Drake nerf. +1
Kriorth
Deadspace Knights
#250 - 2012-09-18 16:16:13 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Kriorth wrote:
Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?
Not sure if I'm missing some sarcasm or you're unaware of medium railguns having terrible tracking & range combos regardless of ammo.


No, no sarcasm.. stats were quoted with DPS for each weapon (assuming they hit)... But missiles do reduced damage against moving targets based on the velocity do they not?!
darius mclever
#251 - 2012-09-18 16:16:14 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?


no never.

also nobody runs smart bomb only t3s in fleet regularly. Roll
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#252 - 2012-09-18 16:16:28 UTC
Oh dear Big smile

All that adoration you have received the past few months must have gone straight into reinforcing your balls for you to touch the third rail of balancing: Missiles.

Not sure the damage hit on heavies is warranted/needed with the other changes mentioned, but guess that is what testing is for.

By the by, could you tone down mission Sansha TD spam the same way you toned down Serpentis ECM .. these changes will make drone boats the only viable way of running the missions with large spawns.
As Amarr only using a Tachy Paladin I have started declining all Sansha missions as 5km optimal 90% of the time really does no good Big smile
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2012-09-18 16:17:56 UTC
Kriorth wrote:


Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?


There's this thing called tracking, you might've heard of it. It reduces your damage if your target is moving in any direction but directly towards or away from you.
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#254 - 2012-09-18 16:18:22 UTC
Kriorth wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:>Needs buff, medium rails are the most useless thing in the game currently.
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:>Needs buff, probably will get one cause they suck
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
Time to hit: instant

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Time to hit: 10 seconds

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


fixed


Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?

uhhh yeah lol
Your kidding right?
oh and missiles are affected by transvers movement as well as a targets speed. Anyone who uses an AB on an anomaly tengu will confirm this. :)
Ashera Yune
Doomheim
#255 - 2012-09-18 16:18:44 UTC
While we're at it could we buff HAM's? I feels HAM's could get a bit more dps or range and reduction in PG cost.

Lower the exp radius and/or increase exp velocity since missile exp radius rigs don't affect HAMs.

"Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."

 Kahlil Gibran
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2012-09-18 16:19:20 UTC
I support the general direction of these changes.

In terms of skill training and making the game more interesting. Do you think it might be better to add 2 new modules for missiles instead of having TE's and TC's effect missiles? While keeping the TD the ewar against all.

That way missile skills would get you missile bonuses. Though keeping it the way you have planned makes split weapon system ships more viable.
DeadNite
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#257 - 2012-09-18 16:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: DeadNite
CCP Foz,
I have a few questions regarding missiles:
- Do you think it is time to remove the specific damage type bonus on ships so they can make full use of their weapon systems? Now with HM damage being lowered, it makes sense that they should be able to use all missile types to their full effect.
- Will mods/rigs/implants/skills that currently only enhance LM/HM/CM finally affect Rockets/AM/HAM/Torps like the other weapon systems?
- Will bombs be impacted by any of this? (e.g.; Attempt to target bombers as they de-cloak and dampen to reduce bomb damage or equip TEs/TCs on your bomber to increase damage application to smaller/moving targets)

I know that CCP has tried very hard to keep from missiles being just another turret type but one would think they should still be consistent in fitting choices that affect them like other weapons systems (e.g.; some of the questions above).
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#258 - 2012-09-18 16:19:37 UTC
Booo! All the ships I can fly are now terrible. Thanks.
Kriorth
Deadspace Knights
#259 - 2012-09-18 16:19:53 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Kriorth wrote:


Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?


There's this thing called tracking, you might've heard of it. It reduces your damage if your target is moving in any direction but directly towards or away from you.



Reduces you damage or your chance to hit?
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#260 - 2012-09-18 16:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Kriorth wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Kriorth wrote:
Except that missiles shouldn't be doing maximum damage against moving targets. There isn't a reduction in damage to a moving target from a railgun is there?
Not sure if I'm missing some sarcasm or you're unaware of medium railguns having terrible tracking & range combos regardless of ammo.


No, no sarcasm.. stats were quoted with DPS for each weapon (assuming they hit)... But missiles do reduced damage against moving targets based on the velocity do they not?!
And turrets can constantly miss things while missiles will always do some damage.
Kriorth wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
There's this thing called tracking, you might've heard of it. It reduces your damage if your target is moving in any direction but directly towards or away from you.



Reduces you damage or your chance to hit?
Both, especially when combined with falloff, if you don't know this you perhaps shouldn't comment. Not quite the place to ask for such info either.